General Yuzuru Chat

[xeyra]

What we can take away from all of this, which I'm sure everyone agrees, is that it won't be easy for him. He'll have the most pressure, the most to lose and probably will have to work the hardest to prove something to himself and the judges. And every little point will count. So unless Yuzu knows he can do a 4Lz that can earn him a +2 at the very least in the SP, it won't be mathematically worth it against the scoring he can get on his 4Lo right now. 

[Yatagarasu]

19 minutes ago, meoima said:

I am sorry if I misunderstood you.  

 

Well all strategies have their own risks... if not this isn't life... 

I would say, the SP has a limit so if they all go clean, the score would be very close. So it might not worth it to risk for 1.5 point and lose 8-10 points in return.

 

I did say they would still put Yuzuru on top once he goes clean, and that at the same time they will give candies to others as much as they can. This isn't contracting. It just means he has less room to make errors. So even though I do find their way of scoring quite unfair and not based on the true quality that Yuzuru has put out there, there's nothing we can do.

 

The only way for Yuzuru is, to count on himself and skates as well as he can, make least mistakes or better, No mistake. 

 

And of course, we all wish for him to win. 

 

No problem, happens.

I mean if the judges were doing the job they were/are supposed to be doing, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But indeed, it is what it is, and right now all we can do is accept that that's the state of things.

 

And yes, absolutely everything has its own risks. This past season's strategy turned out to be the right one, but it could have easily gone the other way. 

As for the next season, yes, it's true that with the scores of the SP being capped in a way, the scores would end up being close, and even if not on top, with a clean performance, Yuzuru would be there about. Then of course it'd depend on the FS itself.

 

But I personally can't stop thinking about the 0.33 and the 2 points or so this time around, so it's my nature to always be on the cautious, paranoid side and thus go for the higher risk on some matters (which is why I said that if the 4Lz is in good condition in practice, I think it pays off to use it). That strategy of course, has its own risks too, it's just that I prefer those but it is understandable too if he goes for the conservative SP as a good basis for the FS later on. Hopefully the dice fall in the best possible way in the end.

[meoima]

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

What we can take away from all of this, which I'm sure everyone agrees, is that it won't be easy for him. He'll have the most pressure, the most to lose and probably will have to work the hardest to prove something to himself and the judges. And every little point will count. So unless Yuzu knows he can do a 4Lz that can earn him a +2 at the very least in the SP, it won't be mathematically worth it against the scoring he can get on his 4Lo right now. 

Yeap... unless the 4lz with direct steps worths +2 to +3, he won't (and should not) put it in the SP. Because it doesn't worth all the risks. 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, b138oo said:

4. There is a possibility that those judges who hate LGC and pro classic programsp would love Chopin, be like "this is what he should have done before", and throw some points 

 

 

I didn't quite see this earlier so I didn't reply then but... personally, my feeling last season was that judges (except the required ones at specific competitions) loved LGC. He got max GOE in his step sequence 4 times! Judges were loving that thing (and/or his pants). 

 

They just didn't love Yuzu failing to skate it clean. 

[meoima]

5 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I didn't quite see this earlier so I didn't reply then but... personally, my feeling last season was that judges (except the required ones at specific competitions) loved LGC. He got max GOE in his step sequence 4 times! Judges were loving that thing (and/or his pants). 

 

They just didn't love Yuzu failing to skate it clean. 

Do you mind counting the BV for this layout: 4lz 4Lo 3F // 4T3T 4T1lo3S 4S 3A3Lo 3A

It just suddenly popped up out of my mind. I don't think he will go for it though. 

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

I didn't quite see this earlier so I didn't reply then but... personally, my feeling last season was that judges (except the required ones at specific competitions) loved LGC. He got max GOE in his step sequence 4 times! Judges were loving that thing (and/or his pants). 

 

They just didn't love Yuzu failing to skate it clean. 

 

In fact, I can't wait to see the new Chopin's perfected Step Sequence (I kinda wish he brought back some elements of the original Step Sequence, they were so on point with the music). Yuzuru's Skating Skills are as high as ever, right now. LGC was a program out of everybody's league. So I bet Chopin 3.0 will be just as hard - and maybe something more. 

[xeyra]

4 minutes ago, meoima said:

Do you mind counting the BV for this layout: 4lz 4Lo 3F // 4T3T 4T1lo3S 4S 3A3Lo 3A

It just suddenly popped up out of my mind. I don't think he will go for it though. 

 

115.44

[meoima]

Just now, xeyra said:

 

115.44

it is not bad.... other than the 3A3lo I don't think he should train... it is hard to get it ratified at the very near of the program. maybe he should try 4T3Lo instead... 

at the same time, we might have Nathan going for 6-7 quads. If Yuzuru wants to keep up with that, he might train 4T3Lo then. 

[Fresca]

2 hours ago, meoima said:

He will be fine. At least he does not cheat his jump like someone... so what it's just 4T3T? It's fully rotated and clean. They will not be able to crack him down. Someone wants to bring 4F3T in the second half but they MIGHT be cracked down by the tech panel because they cheat their jumps. So good luck with that. 

 

Shoma wants to bring in 4F 3T in the second half? It will be a good strategy BV wise but I'm not sure it's a good strategy considering the risk of injury he faces with his 4F...that's the jump he lands UR and lands extremely misaligned the most. Risk of injury increases when skating tired and even further if he is tacking on 3T after his 4F.

 

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Sorry, didn't see the post. There is always talk about the tech and execution, which frankly I hand-wave, because Chopin was masterfully executed and while we can talk about the level 3 of the steps it's really not something that is massively important in the grand constellation of things (plus I am sure this version will easily go to lvl4 anyway; Yuzuru is a better skater now than he was then).

The main points were music and choreography. I must admit I understand the talk about the music cut of the piece itself. The difference is that to me, I didn't find it an issue but I do understand how to some, cutting out the main lyrical theme was a problem that messed up the musical progression of the piece. 
For choreography, uh, I think the objection was that quite a bit of the program was actually CoP orientated, if I remember well so forced to fit that. 

 

On the music argument, I also didn't find it an issue and sounds to me like a criticism on how to make the piece better and shouldn't take away from Yuzu's program. On the choreography, I totally disagree. No matter if the choreography was deliberately created to be CoP friendly, it is still musical and organic. "Forced" is the exact opposite of anything I would associate with the choreography in Chopin. I can understand if it is not to someone's taste. Chopin and Yuzu's execution of it has a very contemporary dance style of movement. Not everyone likes contemporary dance. I remember the many, many complaints about Yuzu's noodle arms and posture when in reality if these are natural and fit the music and the piece, these are considered beautiful in different dance styles. But I don't see how anything in the choreography in Chopin is forced. I will agree to disagree with that criticism.

[Murieleirum]

4 minutes ago, meoima said:

it is not bad.... other than the 3A3lo I don't think he should train... it is hard to get it ratified at the very near of the program. maybe he should try 4T3Lo instead... 

at the same time, we might have Nathan going for 6-7 quads. If Yuzuru wants to keep up with that, he might train 4T3Lo then. 

 

 

I really like 4L3T. I don't know in what condition his training might be though. I've been linked with this beautiful gif from NHK 2016. 

[xeyra]

10 minutes ago, meoima said:

it is not bad.... other than the 3A3lo I don't think he should train... it is hard to get it ratified at the very near of the program. maybe he should try 4T3Lo instead... 

at the same time, we might have Nathan going for 6-7 quads. If Yuzuru wants to keep up with that, he might train 4T3Lo then. 

 

Maybe 3A2Lo might be slightly more feasible, even if it's not a particularly high scoring combination.

There was the proposal earlier of something like 4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4T3T 4T1lo3S 4S 3A2Lo 3A, which would be only a few points lower, at 111.81. Or with repeat 4S (112.03). Using 3A2T in these scenarios would lower the BV to 111.26 and 111.48 respectively.

 

To mods: sorry, this did end up turning into a layout convo that probably belongs in the other thread. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Oh man, here comes another long one. Apologies in advance.

 

I heard some mention about his thinking having shifted and as a fan of his thinking and/or character (if he ever decides to become a cult leader, I'll be a highly susceptible victim to his brainwashing), I just had to add my two cents. Tho a lot of it may seem like a reiteration or a sum-up of what's already been said, my angle is not so much his layout, etc., but his character/thinking so there's still a difference...I hope.

 

I'm not sure if I'd call what he's doing a major shift in thinking. Perhaps there's a bit of it but it's not a fundamental one where he has to compromise his core values. The guy has strong principles and is an annoyingly stubborn stickler to them to boot, and while a lot of it has to do with a rare combination of overflowing talent and out-of-this-world diligence, never straying from these principles is basically why he is where he is today. So, imo, asking him to depart from them is basically asking him to quit being who he is.

 

At first glance, this move (if he really does stick to it, it's still too early to tell yet and his camp has quite obviously deliberately kept the mystery going for reasons) may seem out-of-character but I think it's all a matter of perspective. Here's mine:

 

His style has always been to challenge new difficulties. And even though he's had to struggle to overcome them, he *did* triumph over them in the end. He's pretty close to collecting all 10 stamps when it comes to figure skating accomplishments. That leaves only one or two before he can redeem his prize (whatever that is) and one of these things is something he's said from day one that he wants to do and has never been able to pull off: to have a high ratio of overall consistency when it comes to his performances. 

 

While that doesn't mean he can't mess up at all, it does mean he can mess up only very little and definitely *not* during times that truly count. So far, he's had clean streaks but he's never been able to pull them off long enough to last until the most important of times and that's definitely not enough times for him to consider himself as consistent in his own books. Not to mention the fact that last season, he was anything but, what with only a single clean performance to his name. And although he came out of it on top in the end, he's also experienced  how low he could sink in the process when he's no longer the only one pushing the boundaries.

 

So last season, as well as the ones before it, also gave him valuable hints on how to finally tackle this long-standing challenge. It's all been a steady build-up that culminates to the next season which is why it wouldn't do for him to repeat the process when the last season has already proven what the outcome could be. Why waste the chance on a process he's already tried when all the previous seasons are seemingly informing him of something else he has still yet to try?  

 

Now is the time for him to gather all the intel he's learned these past three seasons (four, even, if we include the last Olympic one) and come up with a solution that's a good balance of strategy and difficulty, and while there is still a certain amount of risk, well, we all know that there's always going to be some. At least this would be uncharted territory for him, and while it may not guarantee success, who's to know how successful he'd be if he doesn't try sailing through it first? So in true Hanyu fashion, he's going right off to explore. And imma wish him all the best because one way or another, he'll soar.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, all in all, I find this move--if it's indeed the one he's taking--still very fundamentally him in all his essence. To me, if to no one else.

 

TL;DR: Where this move would be a step back for anyone else, I'm actually of a mind that it's a step forward for him. He's been traveling at mach speed for so long, slowing down a teeny bit may actually do him some good, being the extra-terrestrial that he is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

Maybe 3A2Lo might be slightly more feasible, even if it's not a particularly high scoring combination.

There was the proposal earlier of something like 4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4T3T 4T1lo3S 4S 3A2Lo 3A, which would be only a few points lower, at 111.81. Or with repeat 4S (112.03). Using 3A2T in these scenarios would lower the BV to 111.26 and 111.48 respectively.

 

To mods: sorry, this did end up turning into a layout convo that probably belongs in the other thread. 

 

Of course, any of these BV situations will pale in comparison to the 122 BV Nathan might have with a 7-quad offering, but I'm not sure it's a sure bet he could land that kind of layout cleanly with positive GOE. As for Shoma, his planned WTT layout was around 107 BV and with an added 4S or 4Lz might put him around 111 or close to 115 BV respectively (if he goes for that). I'm not sure if Boyang will go for something similar to his attempted 4CC layout or if he'd go even further and add two 4Lz alongside the 4Lo (and/or go for 6 quads). His BV either way might be between 111 to 116. If Javi goes for a 4Lo, his initial layout will be slightly lower than Yuzu's last season because Javi doesn't backload as much. Patrick will likely not change his FS BV much (but is adding a 4S to his SP). 

 

So all in all, Yuzu will very likely not be able to catch up in BV with the younger generation, but he can try and make the gap a bit shorter from his current 103+. 4Lz provides that and a lot of layout freedom too. So here's crossing our fingers it all works out for him this summer and further on to the Olympics.

[Yatagarasu]

20 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Of course, any of these BV situations will pale in comparison to the 122 BV Nathan might have with a 7-quad offering

 

Goodness. I hope he doesn't do that and it's completely not competition related but his poor hip and his health in general possibly. With all of those in practice too, it really sounds like too high a risk in that way. 

[lily]

2 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Goodness. I hope he doesn't do that and it's completely not competition related but his poor hip and his health in general possibly. With all of those in practice too, it really sounds like too high a risk in that way. 

One thing that worries me is that he could get injured while practicing before the season even starts