General Yuzuru Chat

[Fresca]

3 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

OT, but this here made me realize why I don't like Chopin as much as other programs. And it's precisely that ice prince, prince charming feeling. I find that kind of thing really cliche and boring - maybe I've just become a cynical adult . Of course, Yuzu's skating is beautiful and there are many great points in the program. Objectively it's great. Subjectively, to me, it's too close to what people expect of figure skating - right down to the classical music - which makes it cliche. It also bugs me when people say it fits Yuzu. Because, to me, that's like putting him in a pretty, neat little box. When in fact, I don't think they've invented a box that fits him yet.

 

I'm not saying Yuzu doesn't fit Chopin. I'm saying I think he can do so much more and saying he fits Chopin is underestimating him. I guess maybe to long term skating fans, skating a really good classical program is the ultimate achievement. To me, as a new skating fan, skating new, more unusual programs really well is the ultimate achievement. That might actually be why I fell for Yuzuru last year, when he had two - to me - unusual programs. He surprised me and charmed me and I want to see what else he'll come up with.

 

Sorry, I got a little carried away and I hope nobody will be offended by this. The above is just my impression, based on my own likes and dislikes and I believe everyone is entitled to their own. Although I would be curious if anyone else shares these thoughts... Because it really seems like most people absolutely adore Chopin and I'm usually feeling like I'm stuck in a corner just trying to understand lol

 

Saying Chopin fits Yuzu isn't putting him into a box at all. I think Yuzu is very versatile and can do many types of programs. I'm cross-trained in dance (ballet, contemporary, jazz, hip hop, ballroom) and I think Yuzu can do many of those styles well. He can do jazz, he can do blues, he can be balletic, he can be a warrior, he can be vulnerable, he can be a rock star, he can do more lyrical/commercial hip hop. There are however, certain pieces of music and certain styles of choreography that you can connect to more, that naturally fit your style of movement. That is what I mean when I say Chopin fits Yuzu. It looks like a very intimate conversation between Yuzu's skating and the music. Which one drives the other? Having a piece of music or particular style of movement you organically gravitate to does not lessen your capability.

 

Also, saying Yuzu fits Chopin is definitely not underestimating him. Artistically, it's a more complex program than PW, LGC, or Seimei. Those are more straightforward since Yuzu is playing a straightforward character. In Chopin, there is no character to play. His movement and his expression need to evoke the qualities the music - light, heavy, staccato, flowing sustained, etc and needs to do it all with an ease and flow. It's more nuanced than PW, LGC, or Seimei. Connection with the music is a must. If Yuzu didnt feel the piece as he does, it would fall apart.

 

One more point: music may be classical but his movement is not classical. Not at all. He has such an open upper body, arms and head and that's what he uses to evoke that feeling of lack of inhibition.

[Étudeesque]

Also I don't know if anyone has linked it yet but here is the original Chopin with the layout that seems to be pretty close to Chopin 3.0?

 

What do people think of it? Of course he falls here and does 3A as his first jump but it seems pretty similar to what he is planning...

 

 

[meoima]

By the way, as someone has some experience with both classical music competitions and figure skating competitions, I have to tell you this:

 

- In the classical music world, judges will not care if you repeat something for 3-4 seasons. They have to sit there, listening and judging 834776487 competitors from 8 AM till 10 PM. At some point, everything and everyone just SOUNDS THE SAME!!!. I know because I was among the audience and I was just drifting away even before my friend came to perform. And I did not even know what they did, were it Bach, Mozart, or Debussy? Not a clue. It was just very very tiring. 

- The same happens to figure skating competitions. I sat there in the tech panel for like 3 straight days, and at some point, I did not care who the hell just won. Sometimes judges gave out scores in some very stupid way and tech panel looks at them like @_@? But that's all. When you have to sit there in the ice rink for the whole week, judging 389564765 skaters per day, everyone will be like: As long as you're clean, you do well, you get the candies. 

[Yatagarasu]

2 minutes ago, Pamigena said:

So I'm left to wonder if going clean would even be good enough with a threepeat Chopin, or if he would have to go squeaky Yuzu-clean in order to not get some major dings for every tiny mistake.

 

Yes, everything in this post but especially that. 

 

I think it'll be fine with the 4Lz. Without the 4Lz, we're going to get exactly what you're saying there. The judges really can do whatever they want and I don't subscribe to the idea that they 'have to' give him marks because of the old Chopin. No, they really don't. 

[meoima]

3 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

This I don't agree with because Zhenya's situation is not the same as Yuzuru's. Men's is much more advanced on tech, and there quite a few ahead of Yuzuru now. You cannot apply what they are doing to the men and expect the same. 
What you can do is couple it with his line of thinking of last season and 'the highest average' and try to keep the tech as high as possible while at the same time keeping it in the range which gives you the highest possible chance of being clean-ish. That's not easy at all and it's important there's a balance or you fall too far back in case of a single, small mistake.

1

There are several ladies who can do 3lz3T and 3F solo with 2A in the SP. On paper, their layout seems more impressive but they can not score as much as her. But they are still inferior to Zhenia. It is just the same.

Putting the 4S3T in the SP only increase the risk, and it does not worth it at all. I doubt the judges care if he does 4S3T and fails, and think that he does cleanly 4T3T in the second half is inferior. 

[Murieleirum]

5 minutes ago, meoima said:

By the way, as someone has some experience with both classical music competitions and figure skating competitions, I have to tell you this:

 

- In the classical music world, judges will not care if you repeat something for 3-4 seasons. They have to sit there, listening and judging 834776487 competitors from 8 AM till 10 PM. At some point, everything and everyone just SOUNDS THE SAME!!!. I know because I was among the audience and I was just drifting away even before my friend came to perform. And I did not even know what they did, were it Bach, Mozart, or Debussy? Not a clue. It was just very very tiring. 

- The same happens to figure skating competitions. I sat there in the tech panel for like 3 straight days, and at some point, I did not care who the hell just won. Sometimes judges gave out scores in some very stupid way and tech panel looks at them like @_@? But that's all. When you have to sit there in the ice rink for the whole week, judging 389564765 skaters per day, everyone will be like: As long as you're clean, you do well, you get the candies. 

 

THIS. 

No judge in a classical musical competition would ever even DREAM of 'penalizing' or underscoring a competitor only because they brought - say - Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto in D major. Or Tchaikovsky's Piano concerto no. 1. Or if a singer brought Der hölle rache. No matter how may times they've heard it that day/week/their whole life. 

[Floria]

hace 3 minutos , meoima said:

By the way, as someone has some experience with both classical music competitions and figure skating competitions, I have to tell you this:

 

- In the classical music world, judges will not care if you repeat something for 3-4 seasons. They have to sit there, listening and judging 834776487 competitors from 8 AM till 10 PM. At some point, everything and everyone just SOUNDS THE SAME!!!. I know because I was among the audience and I was just drifting away even before my friend came to perform. And I did not even know what they did, were it Bach, Mozart, or Debussy? Not a clue. It was just very very tiring. 

- The same happens to figure skating competitions. I sat there in the tech panel for like 3 straight days, and at some point, I did not care who the hell just won. Sometimes judges gave out scores in some very stupid way and tech panel looks at them like @_@? But that's all. When you have to sit there in the ice rink for the whole week, judging 389564765 skaters per day, everyone will be like: As long as you're clean, you do well, you get the candies. 

This is what I wonder sometimes. Worlds Men SP lasted four hours. By the end of it I was exhausted (well, I was rooting for Yuzu ) and I was basically sitting on sofa all the time. I can only guess how judges are feeling at the end of a long competition. Do they really do a great deal of thinking when giving scores to the last group of skaters? In that sense GPs and GPF should be much easier. 

[Yatagarasu]

2 minutes ago, meoima said:

There are several ladies who can do 3lz3T and 3F solo with 2A in the SP. On paper, their layout seems more impressive but they can not score as much as her. But they are still inferior to Zhenia. It is just the same.

Putting the 4S3T in the SP only increase the risk, and it does not worth it at all. I doubt the judges care if he does 4S3T and fails, and think that he does cleanly 4T3T in the second half is inferior. 

 

No, it's really not though. a 4Lz+4F3T or a 4Lo+4F3T or a 4Lo + 4Lz3T is a bigger difference to Yuzuru's 4Lo+4T3T than what you are mentioning, especially in an enviorment where the young guns are being pushed forward, and there is already an atmosphere of 'he's old'. 

And then, to top it off, it's in a three-peat of a program. 

 

I have no issues with him dumping the 4S-3T, I've been advocating for that since last season. I also see no problems with using 4T-3T in its place, especially in the second half of the program. But coupled with the 4Lo, coupled with a program repeated for the third time and coupled with what the other men are doing, yes, it does represent a step backwards. And I think that's actually all right, if it provides him with the safety of an SP he can deliver cleanly and raise his overall chances of success. He's accepting the risks with that and it is what it is then.

[KatjaThera]

3 minutes ago, Fresca said:

 

Saying Chopin fits Yuzu isn't putting him into a box at all. I think Yuzu is very versatile and can do many types of programs. I'm cross-trained in dance (ballet, contemporary, jazz, hip hop, ballroom) and I think Yuzu can do many of those styles well. He can do jazz, he can do blues, he can be balletic, he can be a warrior, he can be vulnerable, he can be a rock star, he can do more lyrical/commercial hip hop. There are however, certain pieces of music and certain styles of choreography that you can connect to more, that naturally fit your style of movement. That is what I mean when I say Chopin fits Yuzu. It looks like a very intimate conversation between Yuzu's skating and the music. Which one drives the other? Having a piece of music or particular style of movement you organically gravitate to does not lessen your capability.

 

Also, saying Yuzu fits Chopin is definitely not underestimating him. Artistically, it's a more complex program than PW, LGC, or Seimei. Those are more straightforward since Yuzu is playing a straightforward character. In Chopin, there is no character to play. His movement and his expression need to evoke the qualities the music - light, heavy, staccato, flowing sustained, etc and needs to do it all with an ease and flow. It's more nuanced than PW, LGC, or Seimei. Connection with the music is a must. If Yuzu didnt feel the piece as he does, it would fall apart.

 

One more point: music may be classical but his movement is not classical. Not at all. He has such an open upper body, arms and head and that's what he uses to evoke that feeling of inhibition.

Like I said, it's just my impression. I'm also someone who listens to classical music casually, but I'm far from a connoisseur, so that probably plays a part.

 

I agree he is very versatile, that was actually my point. He's too versatile, IMO, to pinpoint Chopin as a defining program as it seems to me some people are doing. I think he does fit classical and Chopin very well. I also think he fits PW, LGC, Seimei and more very well, too. I guess it was more an issue of semantics for me. He fits more than one program (and so he fits in more than one box), rather than the program fitting him (though I'm not sure why putting it like that bothers me.)

 

Artistically, that's another of my own, personal shortcomings. I've never been an artistic person. I can look at an abstract painting and see nothing but splotches of color, while people around me talk about feelings and images they get. Expressing classical music is the same for me. And in fact, non-classical as well. Sometimes, it does speak out to me, but I would never be able to explain why. For example, I think I've said it before, but LGC at Worlds 2017, whenever I watch it, is, to me, the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And by thing I don't mean skating program or so, but simply, every thing. And LGC isn't even my favorite program. So, it's a personal perspective thing, I guess. That said, I like Yuzu skating Chopin, I like the feeling he puts in it. I guess it's the choreography I don't find that special. But again, that's just my impression. Maybe after watching figure skating closely for a few years, I will change my mind. lol

 

But thank you for the input. It's interesting to see a well argued opinion of someone who really knows what they're talking about :)

[Yatagarasu]

18 minutes ago, Fresca said:

Also, saying Yuzu fits Chopin is definitely not underestimating him. Artistically, it's a more complex program than PW, LGC, or Seimei. 

 

Chopin is not a more complex program than LGC. LGC is the most complex SP program he has skated, in terms of this sport, which is what counts.

[Fresca]

3 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Chopin is not a more complex program than LGC. LGC is the most complex SP program he has skated, in terms of this sport, which is what counts.

 

Yes, LGC is technically more complex than Chopin because of the transitions. He can make Chopin 3.0 technically more complex than LGC if he wants by adding more to it. You cannot make LGC more artistically complex than Chopin no matter what you add.

[KatjaThera]

Let's not get into art vs sport arguments again. It's actually a bit weird to compare LGC and Chopin, anyway, given how different they are.

 

As an argument in favor of LGC, though, I'd say it being more restrictive artistically is actually something that makes it more difficult. We've seen Yuzu skate a great Chopin even when upset. But he can't do a really good LGC when upset. It's harder to force yourself to smile and entertain when you're having a bad day. But those are just a matter of perspective.

[Sombreuil]

3 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Let's not get into art vs sport arguments again. It's actually a bit weird to compare LGC and Chopin, anyway, given how different they are.

 

As an argument in favor of LGC, though, I'd say it being more restrictive artistically is actually something that makes it more difficult. We've seen Yuzu skate a great Chopin even when upset. But he can't do a really good LGC when upset. It's harder to force yourself to smile and entertain when you're having a bad day. But those are just a matter of perspective.

That's a good point in favour of Chopin in Olympic season

[Yatagarasu]

10 minutes ago, Fresca said:

 

Yes, LGC is technically more complex than Chopin because of the transitions. He can make Chopin 3.0 technically more complex than LGC if he wants by adding more to it. You cannot make LGC more artistically complex than Chopin no matter what you add.

 

Yes, he can and I wager Jeff will do his best to do it. But the thing that counts in this judged sport is just that. How artistically complex a program is, is not what is going to win the day here so the argument that Chopin is more artistically complex (which by the way just invites subjectivity so I'm not going to get into that argument as ten people will have ten differing opinions, especially when you compare something so vastly different as LGC and Chopin; I've seen plenty of counter arguments for Chopin, some of which I can even somewhat agree with starting just with the music cut) is not really of ultimate or even high importance. 

Figure skating is a sport, first and last.

 

Just for the record, no, I am not arguing for LGC in the Olympic season. I definitely do not think that's a good idea.

[KatjaThera]

1 minute ago, Sombreuil said:

That's a good point in favour of Chopin in Olympic season

lol I didn't even mean to make that point, but you're right