2018-19 Thoughts on skating, programs, and skaters!

[Old Cat Lady]

12 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

Or take away credit for assumptions either.   There's simply no proof that him (or anyone else) not cramming random turns into his programs means he is incapable of doing so,

 

There's no proof that he can, either.

 

Let me see if I am accurately understanding the points of view throughout this conversation:

your argument seems to be: He does these few things well so of course he can do it just as well if there's more

My argument: You need to prove it.

 

Your argument: You can tell who has greater ability by simply comparing the few similar things they do 

My argument: Just because you're good at some aspects doesn't mean you're just as good at others.  Shouldn't someone who demonstrates proficiency in many areas get more credit than someone who only shows it in a few?

 

Your argument: The overall skating skills description says the score is for ability, not content.

My argument: A key phrase in the main description as well as the wording in the supporting descriptors make it look like they're also marking content - at the very least, they're looking for variety.  Though this is not a point I consider worth debating to much extent as the only way to know the intent for sure is to ask the developers.

 

However, as a corollary to this point, I argue complexity shows a greater demonstration of skill.

For example,

Skater A does 4 crossovers into a spiral 

Skater B does mohawk, twizzle, 2 crossovers, change edge spiral

They both show exceptional speed.  They both are getting a lot of power from their crossovers. Both the spirals are on a very deep edge.  But I argue that Skater B is demonstrating greater skill. Are we supposed to just assume that because Skater A's crossovers look as good or better than Skater B's, that skater A can do the twizzle and mohawk just as well?  Or that he'd be able to have the same control and speed on his spiral if he added the extra steps and edge or had 2 less pushes?  Certainly, not doing it doesn't prove he can't.  But what matters is what he actually demonstrates.

 

Similarly, if someone is able to do a perfectly centered, beautifully positioned sit spin of 5 revolutions should we just assume he can also do a change foot sit spin with a difficult variation of 10 revolutions just as well?  Isn't it possible for one skater to do a single position spin better but another skater to be able to do the more complicated one better?  Isn't the second skater showing a greater demonstration of the vocabulary of skills? 

 

Heck, let's remove the variations.  Doesn't it show greater skill to be able to keep a spin fast and centered while holding a perfect position for 10 revolutions than it would to do the same for 5?  How do we know that the skater won't eventually slow down?  I'm not "taking away credit" for only rewarding skater A for what he actually does.  

 

Quote

You also said this before, but I chose not to counter it:

Are you sure it's "easier" to make things look perfect -- all the basic turns and steps, keeping supreme quality of speed, edge, and control through the program -- a la Yuna Kim,  as opposed to doing a bunch of turns of OK to mediocre quality -- a la Alina Zagitova?

 

So, you're arguing Alina Zagitova makes it look good? 

 

No one here is trying to argue that Zagitova's skating skills on any level compares favorably to Kostner (I didn't watch much skating during the Kim era).  

 

But yes, I do believe that it is much easier for Nathan Chen to make that 1/2 second inside edge spread eagle look better than that wobbly ass 2-3 second back outside spread eagle.

 

Yes, I do think it was much easier for Kostner to make her many, many crossovers look floaty and beautiful than it was for her to make her step sequence look effortless and sharp.

 

Yes, I do think it's easier for Chen to look confident and secure in his crossovers with sexy ballet arms (can't remember if that was you who came up with that but I've always enjoyed that phrase) than it is for Boyang Jin to make turns and steps look smooth.

 

And as you referenced above, I argue that maintaining the quality of even simple turns, steps, and edges throughout the program shows greater skill than doing it in small segments here and there.

 

4 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

Men: Keiji's JoJo Ex is the only thing that could stand on par with Sakura Fairy

 

I rarely find exhibitions worth watching so I didn't watch many of them.  I love that Yuzu puts so much effort into his exhibitions.  His gala programs are even more nuanced than a lot of his competition programs.  I also enjoyed Sui/Han's exhibition but not sure if the program itself was that great or if it's just because Sui/Han are just so good.

[hoodie axel]

I forgot to comment on Jason. I've never liked that particular style of skating, but he skated with a lot more of an open quality, at least in the SP, so his switch to TCC worked in his favour there. I still hope to see him be able to jump better because it really detracts overall. In terms of PCS, though, he's easily second in the field for me behind Yuzuru, and I would even say ahead of him when it comes to Composition/Choreography due to better flexibility and superior spins that he actually ends up showcasing in his programs. Only slightly behind in terms of PE, SS, and IN (but behind by more than just slightly on TR).

[SparkleSalad]

Apart from Yuzu and Guillaume, Jason was the only skater I couldn’t take my eyes off during practices. He was breathtakingly good.

 

When we will get the SBS y-spirals we deserve?  

[hoodie axel]

2 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

Apart from Yuzu and Guillaume, Jason was the only skater I couldn’t take my eyes off during practices. He was breathtakingly good. 

I wish I could watch practices lol (disregarding my vow to never hand in a single cent to the ISU, of course). I've heard that Kaori outshines absolutely everyone in practices, and that Boyang is actually very internal during them, but the difference in projection is vast during the actual skating.

[hoodie axel]

I guess I did this for Yuzuru (although the thoughts were very brief lol), so I am going to give thoughts on what I'd like to see this season for some of the men (Top 6 + Jason)

 

1. Nathan Chen: Training to become a more coherent performer who can commit and project emotion at least to a degree. He's still just 20, so some of his flaws are perhaps understandable, but I see no overall effort from him or his team to work towards creating a fully dimensional performance. Improved basics would be better, since I don't believe there was any work done at all since last season (at least not any significant amount). A lot of his positions are pretty enough to look at in pictures, but they lack intention (which is also evident in pictures, sadly). Less superficial understanding of music. Would like to see him skate to something like his Mao's Last Dancer program, which was a total failure in terms of what he was doing with the music (even ignoring the watered down program), but I don't believe we will.

 

3. Vincent Zhou: Creating a more authentic image on the ice, instead of looking like he's adopting a personality to fit the music. Better refinement (again, due to age to an extent). I don't believe we'll be seeing any work done at all on his overall technique, although he improved very slightly this year in terms of SS, I guess. I am not a fan of the music he has announced, and I am definitely not looking forward to the sloppiness being covered up as "personality" in his SP (although if he ends up projecting a personality with it, it would be a plus on that end).

 

4. Shoma Uno: Get back to where he was with Loco, and then try to add more nuance, more emotional depth, better expression. Improve his SS, as they haven't improved any significant amount for a while. He should be much further ahead at this point of time. I don't think we will see any improvement in the rest of his technique, but I do hope he does more creative things.

 

5. Boyang Jin: Overall improvement in all regards, but also to bring the refinement he's shown himself to be capable of in practices to the competition ice, while combining it with tech content and emotional depth. Stabilizes his jumps again. Could have deeper edges, and be less hunched forward at times. Could stretch out his limbs more, and have fuller movement. Hopefully more creative spins. I'd like to see something inventive and fun for the SP with a fast footwork sequence. His Angel EX is lacking currently (not a fan of how they open it up or at least how he performs some of the opening, nor how some of the emotion is fractured by the way he uses his limbs, and it looks too put together at points because he looks like he's trying a little too hard to look emotional, when he should just do it with a personal feeling)(could also do with better choreo in general or better music, but that's not all on him), but it does show attempts at nuance -- like trying to slow down his stroking according to the music and speed control, or some of the positions and arm movements which look quite honest. On that note, better dance technique overall to avoid being clunky and to reflect these attempts better, more work on projecting maturity, and better technique to achieve defined movement and creating a variation of speed better on the ice with his blades to add layers, too -- and use it all in an introspective LP. A tall order, but he's capable I'd say, although perhaps after another season to fully show all of it. He should also be a little further ahead than he is, but at least there's constant progress.

 

6. Mikhail Kolyada: I guess his music choices are set in stone. I wish he just learns to project a joyful image on the ice, or at least looks like he's having fun, and does so with better facial expression with them, as I have little hope with the choreo. Stops being a headcase ( ). I think his technique is just not suitable for him in the sense he's just not muscular enough to control some of the jumping he does, but I do wish to see how he'd do with better mental grit. Also, it's clear he gets tired after knocking out those initial quads, but he simply must have 3+ to podium... But my criticism is mostly just on emotion on mentality, because his technical and presentation skills are quite good overall (and I don't doubt they will get him further ahead on that regard).

 

9. Jason Brown: Get the quad rotated, and work on more creative programs, with unusual music choices. I don't think he'll be suited to classical music, but might give that a try (EDIT: I think he did Liebestraume, actually! That kind of a soft, airy, joyful feel is definitely suited, I'd say). Improve on every regard, but not worried there.

[WinForPooh]

5 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I guess I did this for Yuzuru (although the thoughts were very brief lol), so I am going to give thoughts on what I'd like to see this season for some of the men (Top 6 + Jason)

 

1. Nathan Chen: Training to become a more coherent performer who can commit and project emotion at least to a degree. He's still just 20, so some of his flaws are perhaps understandable, but I see no overall effort from him or his team to work towards creating a fully dimensional performance. Improved basics would be better, since I don't believe there was any work done at all since last season (at least not any significant amount). A lot of his positions are pretty enough to look at in pictures, but they lack intention (which is also evident in pictures, sadly). Less superficial understanding of music. Would like to see him skate to something like his Mao's Last Dancer program, which was a total failure in terms of what he was doing with the music (even ignoring the watered down program), but I don't believe we will.

 

3. Vincent Zhou: Creating a more authentic image on the ice, instead of looking like he's adopting a personality to fit the music. Better refinement (again, due to age to an extent). I don't believe we'll be seeing any work done at all on his overall technique, although he improved very slightly this year in terms of SS, I guess. I am not a fan of the music he has announced, and I am definitely not looking forward to the sloppiness being covered up as "personality" in his SP (although if he ends up projecting a personality with it, it would be a plus on that end).

 

4. Shoma Uno: Get back to where he was with Loco, and then try to add more nuance, more emotional depth, better expression. Improve his SS, as they haven't improved any significant amount for a while. He should be much further ahead at this point of time. I don't think we will see any improvement in the rest of his technique, but I do hope he does more creative things.

 

5. Boyang Jin: Overall improvement in all regards, but also to bring the refinement he's shown himself to be capable of in practices to the competition ice, while combining it with tech content and emotional depth. Stabilizes his jumps again. Could have deeper edges, and be less hunched forward at times. Could stretch out his limbs more, and have fuller movement. Hopefully more creative spins. I'd like to see something inventive and fun for the SP with a fast footwork sequence. His Angel EX is lacking currently (not a fan of how they open it up or at least how he performs some of the opening, nor how some of the emotion is fractured by the way he uses his limbs, and it looks too put together at points because he looks like he's trying a little too hard to look emotional, when he should just do it with a personal feeling)(could also do with better choreo in general or better music, but that's not all on him), but it does show attempts at nuance -- like trying to slow down his stroking according to the music and speed control, or some of the positions and arm movements which look quite honest. On that note, better dance technique overall to avoid being clunky and to reflect these attempts better, more work on projecting maturity, and better technique to achieve defined movement and creating a variation of speed better on the ice with his blades to add layers, too -- and use it all in an introspective LP. A tall order, but he's capable I'd say, although perhaps after another season to fully show all of it. He should also be a little further ahead than he is, but at least there's constant progress.

 

6. Mikhail Kolyada: I guess his music choices are set in stone. I wish he just learns to project a joyful image on the ice, or at least looks like he's having fun, and does so with better facial expression with them, as I have little hope with the choreo. Stops being a headcase ( ). I think his technique is just not suitable for him in the sense he's just not muscular enough to control some of the jumping he does, but I do wish to see how he'd do with better mental grit. Also, it's clear he gets tired after knocking out those initial quads, but he simply must have 3+ to podium... But my criticism is mostly just on emotion on mentality, because his technical and presentation skills are quite good overall (and I don't doubt they will get him further ahead on that regard).

 

9. Jason Brown: Get the quad rotated, and work on more creative programs, with unusual music choices. I don't think he'll be suited to classical music, but might give that a try (EDIT: I think he did Liebestraume, actually! That kind of a soft, airy, joyful feel is definitely suited, I'd say). Improve on every regard, but not worried there.

 

Ahh so harsh on Mikhail and Boyang! Well not harsh, but such weight of expectation! You expect far more from skaters you like than the ones you don't! I can see (well I could even if I didn't already kind of know) which skaters you really like because with the ones you don't particularly like, it's more 'clean up the really bad stuff so it's not so painful to watch you but you probably won't' and with the ones you like it's 'live up to your potential!! Be better!!!'  

 

But I think we read something about Mikhail maybe finally seeing a sports psychologist now? If they can help him, almost all of those problems will be sorted out. That kind of panic and uncertainty saps physical energy. He can be very expressive with his face and far freer with his expression in his Ex programmes. Get his head halfway sorted out and both of those things might show rapid improvement. (Also you forgot 'don't fall sick so often and be cured from his sinus infections' for Mikhail. And 'don't get hit by cars' for Boyang.)

 

I like how Jason improving isn't a concern, he'll work on every aspect of his skating, that's not a worry. Oh for a rotated quad from him this season! He only did a few ice shows and spent most of the rest of the summer training at TCC, just a short break for a vacation with family, apparently. He's put in so much to this, I hope he gets that 4S. And then that 4T. His 3A has got dramatically better so I have hope. But I disagree that his jumps in general interrupt his programme (I forget how you put it but that's the meaning I remember now), his triples are very good. I can't think of a better 3F now. 

 

And i'd put Jason's SP above Kevin's, memorable and good though Kevin's is.

[hoodie axel]

10 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

Ahh so harsh on Mikhail and Boyang! Well not harsh, but such weight of expectation! You expect far more from skaters you like than the ones you don't! I can see (well I could even if I didn't already kind of know) which skaters you really like because with the ones you don't particularly like, it's more 'clean up the really bad stuff so it's not so painful to watch you but you probably won't' and with the ones you like it's 'live up to your potential!! Be better!!!'  

I have been told that people can tell what I don't like simply by the way I say "no". To be fair to Shoma, though (and I do like him, although don't love), I think we won't see him improve most of his technique to a good extent this season because he'll be doing a coaching change (...thingy), and also because I doubt anyone's going to be fixing his jumps much. Spins, well, I don't think they've improved much since his debut, tbh, and therefore it's more of an extrapolation of the existing trend there. SS is more of a hope now because he's with new choreographers.

 

Nathan and Vincent, well... I doubt we'll ever get emotional depth out of them. Nathan's had three years as a senior, and we can say he's had multiple reasons to not have improved, but he also simply doesn't have that guidance with Raf.

 

Vincent can take another year from me, but I think they'll be trying to make sure he can rotate sufficiently more than anything, and while he's with Dickson and Hamada, let's say he just doesn't have that talent. I mean, he didn't even improve his SS any significant amount last season while he was with Lori, Kurt, Dickson, and Hamada at some point or the other (and in conjunction with two of them at any point IIRC), and that's entirely technical. That's... unfortunate.

 

10 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

But I think we read something about Mikhail maybe finally seeing a sports psychologist now?

I've read that he's been with one since he was a junior. It's just wishful thinking with him. Probably he shouldn't have been taught that technique, but it's a good thing to try and jump purely, and thanks very much for trying. I do agree he's better in exhibitions, and it does sap the energy, but he also lacks emotional depth (perhaps due to constant worrying, that particular area of development has never been a focus, even for exhibitions), so hopefully, he'll try.

 

And yes, hope he and Boyang stay healthy. Will be nice to see what they actually end up doing in the GPs after full seasons of not being in shape.

 

10 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

But I disagree that his jumps in general interrupt his programme (I forget how you put it but that's the meaning I remember now), his triples are very good. I can't think of a better 3F now. 

I do agree he has good triples, and he's great in the SPs. But it does detract when he goes for the quad in the LP, and that leads to a domino effect with him usually. He has a triple-triple and the 3A back, this season, so hope he can get a 4S, too. And yeah, my vote for the best 3F goes to him, too.

 

10 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

And i'd put Jason's SP above Kevin's, memorable and good though Kevin's is.

I don't particularly remember much from the SPs (or most men's programs), so I can't comment on the ranking (the only thing I remember is that Boyang's SP was being discussed as being cheesy, when there were actually some nice ideas there in terms of interpretation). I like Kevin's range of movement, and transitions, but he seems focused more on the moves and transitions than outward performance currently. Which is fine, learn one before the other, can't complain. I do hope he improves on the other regards now though.

[eagle]

7 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

 

Ahh so harsh on Mikhail and Boyang! Well not harsh, but such weight of expectation! You expect far more from skaters you like than the ones you don't! I can see (well I could even if I didn't already kind of know) which skaters you really like because with the ones you don't particularly like, it's more 'clean up the really bad stuff so it's not so painful to watch you but you probably won't' and with the ones you like it's 'live up to your potential!! Be better!!!'  

 

But I think we read something about Mikhail maybe finally seeing a sports psychologist now? If they can help him, almost all of those problems will be sorted out. That kind of panic and uncertainty saps physical energy. He can be very expressive with his face and far freer with his expression in his Ex programmes. Get his head halfway sorted out and both of those things might show rapid improvement. (Also you forgot 'don't fall sick so often and be cured from his sinus infections' for Mikhail. And 'don't get hit by cars' for Boyang.)

 

 

 

 

On Kolyada, he has already been seeing a sports psychologist for some time. The past season, it isnt so much his mental block but his sinus condition that limited his performance.

 

Comments on Kolyada are harsher from the Russians, including TAT. 

There are comments from his fans that it would be better if Kolyada switch coach cos his coach dont really have experience dealing with elite skaters.

For some reason it is said he doesn't get along with Mishin or something, so Kolyada wouldnt switch to Mishin.

Going to US to train under Rafael is not possible unless some generous sponsor agrees to sponsor his training.

Kolyada is not OG silver medalist like Evgenia who can get more sponsors & invites to ice shows.