Mock judging panel

[Raomina]

@robin and @Xen: I've updated the app to include a 'judging panel' option and also instructions on how the app works right now. It's still quite rudimentary and I'll be working on generating full protocols for all skaters at once, but I thought maybe I should have what I have tested out first to see if that update breaks anything.

[Xen]

6 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

I don't think Marin under-rotated? Her flip looked fine, and her 3T might be borderline...

 

Tukt's 3Lz is really beautiful.

The video I'm using is this one-check out the slow mo from the timestamp, and maybe even the bit before then which has a good sideview of her jump landing.

Both the Flip and the Toe were UR, the toe being the more obvious one-check what angle her toepick hits the ice, and how the blade moves when she shifts weight to the blade.  The Flip I think is harder to judge than the toe, but if you pause right as she lands, it's at least at 90 degrees to me, if not more (I'd say probably closer to 95-100) due to how horizontal it appears. I would however like a second look from someone else, because the angles I'm using to judge the Flip are not as clear as the toe ( you get a nice direct view of the blade and toepick on the T's landing and it's UR, slight, but UR). Also, if you watch the take-offs in 0.5 or 0.25 speed, you notice how much PR she has. The flip takes off pretty much right at 180-harder to catch in real time. And the 3Lo is nearly 180 degrees PR too. The 3T on the jump combo has the same issue. But most female skaters do PR heavily, nearly to 180 on the Toe, Sal and loop.

 

On the other hand, compare this to TukTuk-watch that landing in Slow Mo. Now while it's not fully done, it's definitely within the allowed quarter rev (roughly about 40 degrees off).

Marin's is close to Elena's landing, which I actually called-see when the toepick and blade initially land. But I think Marin's is more..horizontal than this.

 

[hoodie axel]

Can you confirm PR on Radio and Honda's combos? I think Honda does 180 on both jumps, which would make both borderline, but feel like Radio does 270 on her toe, which would definitely make it UR. I absolutely hate these "twist the body and leg" take-offs, Yuna has spoiled me with her clean technique. And Tukt, for that matter. Don't even know what I should take the take-off direction to be!

 

Honda: I think the Flip's definitely fine, would give benefit of doubt on toe-loop... Loop's fine, too. This skater is... not a jumper, that's for sure.

Radio: would mark 3T<, and I think 3Lz is borderline (I think I'm taking the take-off direction to be correct)

[Xen]

40 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Can you confirm PR on Radio and Honda's combos? I think Honda does 180 on both jumps, which would make both borderline, but feel like Radio does 270 on her toe, which would definitely make it UR. I absolutely hate these "twist the body and leg" take-offs, Yuna has spoiled me with her clean technique. And Tukt, for that matter. Don't even know what I should take the take-off direction to be!

 

Honda: I think the Flip's definitely fine, would give benefit of doubt on toe-loop... Loop's fine, too. This skater is... not a jumper, that's for sure.

Radio: would mark 3T<, and I think 3Lz is borderline.

Well the issue is ID in real time- in real time, I actually thought both were on the 120-180 PR degrees. In Slow-Mo, I'd say probably 180, with Radio's toe being borderline 180 (closer to 200 when she finally lifts off). But without slow-mo it's harder to catch, hence why I didn't mark them. Also, Tp these days don't do PR calls, so I'm refraining from this (otherwise you'll see 120-180 PR flags from me for most of the ladies, even TukTuk has about a 120 PR on her toe combo).

 

I actually think Radio's 3T was within the quarter mark, barely, but just in. Her 3Lz was the one that if you watch how her leg leaned and her body leaned at landing, made me look in detail in slow-mo and why I called, borderline but unlike the 3T for me she was borderline over the quarter. Marin's 3F and 3T both I find over the quarter, with a horizontal blade landing from my view.  Marin's loop by the way, is short of about 40 degrees of rotation. And Alina's 3Lo in combo, I also nearly called, but checked with a pencil held up and deemed it about 5 degrees from a UR.

 

*sigh* Am I starting to reach Shin Amano levels yet?

[Nuitsuki]

all the PR jumps you guys mentioned would receive bad take off deduction from me 

[hoodie axel]

Hahaha

 

Don't fuss it with the PR, too much, remember that 180 degrees is allowed. I do think Radio's is less rotated than Marin's though. And 120 degrees on toe-loop is actually great! I think most guys do it between 90-120.

[Xen]

I would worry less about PR, since in real time you won't notice it easily unless it's very egregious.

For the weak and strong take off-I always thought that was more in relation to edge depths especially for lutz jumps.

[Nuitsuki]

I know, but it’s so unfair if you think like this: a rotated 3lo from Marin or Sakoto receive equal BV as someone’s 3lo like Kaori who has less PR, in-air rotation and looks much more solid in take off 

 

It is so frustrating. The difference in quality is there, PR are quite noticeable in real time I’d say for skaters like Marin, Sakoto and Shoma.

Kaetlyn and Gabby also prerotate their jumps, but not as obvious as them. As a judge I do think I have to point out the difference.

 

[yuzuangel]

59 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

I know, but it’s so unfair if you think like this: a rotated 3lo from Marin or Sakoto receive equal BV as someone’s 3lo like Kaori who has less PR, in-air rotation and looks much more solid in take off 

What about GOE? Satoko always gets around 0-1 GOE for all her jumps I feel...

[Xen]

15 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

What about GOE? Satoko always gets around 0-1 GOE for all her jumps I feel...

I think that's what she is impling- that there should be an effect in GOE for all the PRed jumps, especially if the judge is capable of noticing it in real time. I think 90-120 is how much most people PR, but maybe there is a point where skaters go straight to 180 PR that could factor in a weak take-off?

[hoodie axel]

Gabriel Daleman has a weak take-off on her 3T-3T. She has nice amplitude, but compare it to Yuna who picks and and jumps and then rotates, to Daleman's who swings her leg and spins around on the toe-pick. The difference is striking.

[Nuitsuki]

oops seems like I have caused a bit confusion  I try to explain more.

 

What I think is, when a jump meets the most basic requirements (correct edge, minimal PR, correct toe pick, etc.), it earns the BV. Any jumps that fail to adhere to minimum requirements should get deduction.

ISU rewards skaters for "good height and distance" "good extension on landing" etc., but there is no reward for clean and solid take off, because it is the basic requirement of a jump. Then who fails to meet that requirement should get deduction. It should be in BV, that's why tech panel can downgrade jump that PR over 180 degree on ice. However, with the current condition that rule is totally ignored. Therefore, as a judge who can see a not-ideal take off in real time, I think I should apply "bad take off" deduction. It may not originally created to punish PR, as @Xen thought it is for the depth of edge in lutz jump,  but the rules don't explicitly say it must be used only for lutz jump, so it is up for judges' interpretation. 

 

For example, taking a rotated 3lo from Sakoto and Kaori. Do not take into account things that are rewarded in GOE like preceding steps/diff. entry exit, etc. Just watch them do a normal 3lo, you see there's difference in terms of quality: Kaori has minimal PR, solid take off. However she would receive the same score Sakoto (again, I'm not yet talking about GOE). Is it fair? I don't think so. Similarly, transitions aside, can you give Alina's 3lz the same score as Yuna's? No. Because her technique is flawed, and because Yuna is not rewarded for correct technique, then Alina should get deduction. The difference is there and score should reflect it.

 

Now if we consider GOE, using Sakoto's  and Kaori's 3lo in their SP for example (assume they are both rotated,), I judge like this:

Sakoto: bullets 2, 5, 6, 7 =>  +2 GOE. -1 to -2 for poor take off => 0 to +1 GOE.

Kaori: bullets 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 => +3 GOE.

 

What do you guys think? Am I using the rules correctly?

[Xen]

24 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

oops seems like I have caused a bit confusion  I try to explain more.

 

What I think is, when a jump meets the most basic requirements (correct edge, minimal PR, correct toe pick, etc.), it earns the BV. Any jumps that fail to adhere to minimum requirements should get deduction.

ISU rewards skaters for "good height and distance" "good extension on landing" etc., but there is no reward for clean and solid take off, because it is the basic requirement of a jump. Then who fails to meet that requirement should get deduction. It should be in BV, that's why tech panel can downgrade jump that PR over 180 degree on ice. However, with the current condition that rule is totally ignored. Therefore, as a judge who can see a not-ideal take off in real time, I think I should apply "bad take off" deduction. It may not originally created to punish PR, as @Xen thought it is for the depth of edge in lutz jump,  but the rules don't explicitly say it must be used only for lutz jump, so it is up for judges' interpretation. 

 

For example, taking a rotated 3lo from Sakoto and Kaori. Do not take into account things that are rewarded in GOE like preceding steps/diff. entry exit, etc. Just watch them do a normal 3lo, you see there's difference in terms of quality: Kaori has minimal PR, solid take off. However she would receive the same score Sakoto (again, I'm not yet talking about GOE). Is it fair? I don't think so. Similarly, transitions aside, can you give Alina's 3lz the same score as Yuna's? No. Because her technique is flawed, and because Yuna is not rewarded for correct technique, then Alina should get deduction. The difference is there and score should reflect it.

 

Now if we consider GOE, using Sakoto's  and Kaori's 3lo in their SP for example (assume they are both rotated,), I judge like this:

Sakoto: bullets 2, 5, 6, 7 =>  +2 GOE. -1 to -2 for poor take off => 0 to +1 GOE.

Kaori: bullets 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 => +3 GOE.

 

What do you guys think? Am I using the rules correctly?

See, the issue is that the rules do allow up to 180 degrees PR. And up to 90 degrees on landing.

Second, is that there isn't a "rule" per se that take off should be between X and X degrees of PR, only that it stays under 180 to avoid PR hits. Even though in actuality, TPs don't really call PR downgrades.

 

If we must, I would think that "weak takeoff" might consider the issue of PR. However, that requires us to establish what degree of PR starts going into "weak takeoff" category.

[Nuitsuki]

@Xen for toe jumps PR is usually accompanied with full-blade toe pick, so i still argue that this kind of technique on toe jumps should get deduction. 

Edge jumps I’d say that PR over 180 degree should definitely get deduction.

[hoodie axel]

11 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

@Xen for toe jumps PR is usually accompanied with full-blade toe pick, so i still argue that this kind of technique on toe jumps should get deduction. 

 

Not true -- look at Daleman's 3T-3T. PR'd 180 degrees, but keeps blade off the ice. Wouldn't get the vault if she didn't I think. I think she might be using her leg strength there.