General Yuzuru Chat

[SparkleSalad]

3 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Quads are exciting, but we've pretty much reached the limit already. OK, someone might bring in the axel and then tried to make every jump a quad. Great. Then what? Quints won't happen that soon - if at all - and there would be many injuries. But there'll be no way to move further without maybe taking a few steps back, or just watch the sport slowly die by itself, as everyone does 7 quads and virtually nothing else.

 

It's like the space race - now they've planted their flags, who the hell bothers going to the moon anymore? I hope Yuzu's ideal image of figure skating will be adopted by the ISU. Will they ever put a limit on number of quads, I wonder? Even 5 quads is a bit worrying for me in terms of how it will affect the flow of the choreography. This is probably not a problem for non-fans who haven't watched every incarnation of SEIMEI 1000 times and know all the choreography and jumps by heart but watching the open practice and waiting for the 3A combo that didn't come threw me off a bit. I hope they can tweak the choreography enough to make he placement of the jumps more natural. I'm sure they will.

 

3 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Though now I wonder what an adult, upgraded Etude would have been like... 

 

He did Etude again as an EX awhile later and I found the choreography really didn't suit his sturdier, more muscular body. His delicate, androgenous form and unrefined teenage flailing was what made that program so magical for me. 

[KatjaThera]

24 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

As much as I advocate Hanyu's choices this season, I don't actually feel there's anything essentially wrong with people being disappointed in them. I mean noone here is expressing disappointment in him (though I can't say the same for people on other mediums). But as FS fans, and Hanyu fans especially, we want to see maybe at least one new program from the guy who's been wowwing us, one way or another, for almost his entire career. It's pretty much an involuntary desire at this point. And generally, that's not asking for much, all things considered. But being the Oly season, most would eventually come to accept that there'll be no new programs from some skaters (Hanyu being one of them) because of highly understandable reasons. As fans, our brains and, to a far extent, even our hearts fully understand, and if given a choice between seeing him struggle with new progs and potentially not deliver when it matters the most as opposed to recycled ones with greater potential of the best outcome, every single one of us would pick the latter choice  in a heartbeat. But until we are explicitly given the turnaround, we can't quite curb the disappointment still, on what is simply a mere promise. I get that. And that's fine.

 

But what gets to me is people confusing having to essentially see familiar programs with the skater backpedalling. That isn't even a misjudgment anymore. It's a complete misidentification. Programs are a major part of a skater's career, yes, but they are not what make the skaters. Programs are merely vehicles, or tools, (I did say more on this later, and it's later) and what they do with them, the kind of life they breathe into them, is what makes them the kind of skaters they are known for. Sure, doing the same program over and over and over without strong reasons behind it can easily be seen as lazy or simply cowardly if they don't have a good reason for it, even if they were to consistently up the ante in terms of tech and layout, and sometimes, perhaps, it is. But so long as they're upping their ante, even if a skater were to stick to the same two programs their entire career, it's *not* a step back. What it is, is a form of stagnating, and while not the most exciting of choices, we all know that it's sometimes necessary.

 

As far as Hanyu is concerned, we can definitively conclude that he is the last person we should ever have the gall to label as "lazy" and " cowardly" without outing ourselves as blind and forgetful imbeciles. And since no one is doing that (here at least), even if some of us are more bitterly disappointed than others, I'm glad that none of us here are that.

 

But Hanyu has chosen to stagnate this season in terms of program choices. Let's acknowledge that. But game or no game, this is the first step, a necessary one, towards delivering clean skates of his level on a consistent basis. And I believe that if he captures the feeling of it, he might be able to evolve even further and deliver clean skates more consistently even with new programs and higher difficulty next time, thus finally breaking his old pattern. And though some of us may be more bitterly disappointed than others at this turn of event for this particular season, if he's able to deliver what he promises, and grow even more for the future, then I'm sure we'll all be extremely glad for it at the end of the day.

 

For now, we'll have to sit down and allow ourselves to think properly: would you give someone with a new program but essentially the same, or if not exactly the same, then similar, theme they've been doing since time immemorial more credit than Hanyu, who's repeating a program that he's picked out amidst the plethora of themes he's explored and given us across the last few seasons, and one that's, when compared to everyone else, warhorse or no warhorse, is quintessentially different? He's doing an ethnic program, for chrissakes, which most of the rest of the world has never seen a top contender in the field do. On Olympic ice. The fact that he even feels confident enough to give the world that is precisely because he's tested it out before *and* knows that the world is capable of accepting it. If we're going to be disappointed that his FS is a repeat, then I think we should similarly be disappointed with those who are using new programs but are essentially sticking to the same old theme they're known for. That's only fair, I feel.

 

All said, we'll all come to realize that there's no real point of contention for his choice to revisit SEIMEI. I think people are more lamenting that he'll be repeating both progs and SEIMEI just happened to be the last one announced since the ship for Chopin has sailed long ago. I'll admit I wasn't as thrilled when that was announced, much as it also deserves to be a Hanyu Oly prog. But I was also aware that LGC did a number on him and the next season is really not one to experiment, especially since he may be nearing the end of his competitive career and needs to show the world the culmination of all his effort. Knowing that, and that his choices are limited for the kind of showing he wants to give, I accepted it without complaint. *shrug* I think the guy himself most probably feels the exact same way with having to repeat his SP as well, especially since he's decided to stick with SEIMEI since day one. I'll be truthful, though, it wasn't until I saw what he made of it in the recent ice shows he did that the small disappointment fully lifted.

 

So...this is what happens when I'm kept idling in the waiting room...everyone else has to suffer torrents of word vomit. Better pray they don't keep me waiting any longer...

Actually, I hope they do keep you waiting! I really enjoy reading your posts. They're informative and more often than not bring a perspective I couldn't have imagined myself.

 

I think you're totally right about why Seimei is getting the criticism. In a way I think that's better, though. Since even Yuzu hesitated about Chopin, having it get the most criticism might have been worse. Seimei is Seimei. Anyone doubting Seimei is either going to be convinced at some point or die of bitterness, I guess.

 

I wonder if FS seasons were somehow longer or he could safely do more competitions that'd have different results, as he'd have more time to fine tune the programs in competition. But what ifs are pointless.

 

Regarding artistry in remakes, I'm actually a fan of a musician who remade the same song six times. Admittedly, the six versions are all completely different. But when asked about it, he said remaking was about expressing the same theme at different points in his development as an artist, through different perspectives. Yuzu redoing his programs this time won't be quite like that - in a way, I guess R&J2 was more like that, to R&J1 - but I found that fascinating with that artist, and, like Nakamaru said, we'll get to see Yuzu's growth in his programs, too.

 

The programs might be 2015-2016 programs. But the one skating them is 2017-2018 Yuzu.

[SparkleSalad]

(Maybe God gave Yuzuru a 3 necks neck to fit 3 Olympic medals around.)

[KatjaThera]

3 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

It's like the space race - now they've planted their flags, who the hell bothers going to the moon anymore? I hope Yuzu's ideal image of figure skating will be adopted by the ISU. Will they ever put a limit on number of quads, I wonder? Even 5 quads is a bit worrying for me in terms of how it will affect the flow of the choreography. This is probably not a problem for non-fans who haven't watched every incarnation of SEIMEI 1000 times and know all the choreography and jumps by heart but watching the open practice and waiting for the 3A combo that didn't come threw me off a bit. I hope they can tweak the choreography enough to make he placement of the jumps more natural. I'm sure they will.

 

 

He did Etude again as an EX awhile later and I found the choreography really didn't suit his sturdier, more muscular body. His delicate, androgenous form and unrefined teenage flailing was what made that program so magical for me. 

That might be the one disadvantage to the re-use of Seimei. Fans will have expectations that might not be met exactly. When one is used to something, changes to that something can seem wrong rather than just different. I'm not sure Yuzu would do 5 quads if it affected the flow. Since flow is quite essential for him, I think. I'm sure he can make it work.

 

And I don't remember seeing that... do you have a link? I admit, I haven't properly watched Etude enough... it was when I was saving ice show videos that I saw what I think was its debut and it kind of blew me away. But I didn't mean re-using the exact choreography, but adapting it... well, no idea if that'd work either. I just love that kind of passion in him. But then again, I absolutely loved him in the Kobe finale, as well, he was so expansive and... I want more of that!

 

(And now I had a crazy idea... what if he did LGC as an EX and managed to do it clean every time, so then he'd decide to give it a try as an SP again and switch with Ballade and it'd go well and he'd stick to it? I can dream, right? *happily ignoring LGC Ex would be at least partly different choreography from LGC SP*)

[KatjaThera]

10 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

(Maybe God gave Yuzuru a 3 necks neck to fit 3 Olympic medals around.)

(I think you can fit a lot more than just 3 Olympic medals around his neck )

[Xen]

39 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

As much as I advocate Hanyu's choices this season, I don't actually feel there's anything essentially wrong with people being disappointed in them. I mean noone here is expressing disappointment in him (though I can't say the same for people on other mediums). But as FS fans, and Hanyu fans especially, we want to see maybe at least one new program from the guy who's been wowwing us, one way or another, for almost his entire career. It's pretty much an involuntary desire at this point. And generally, that's not asking for much, all things considered. But being the Oly season, most would eventually come to accept that there'll be no new programs from some skaters (Hanyu being one of them) because of highly understandable reasons. As fans, our brains and, to a far extent, even our hearts fully understand, and if given a choice between seeing him struggle with new progs and potentially not deliver when it matters the most as opposed to recycled ones with greater potential of the best outcome, every single one of us would pick the latter choice  in a heartbeat. But until we are explicitly given the turnaround, we can't quite curb the disappointment still, on what is simply a mere promise. I get that. And that's fine.

 

But what gets to me is people confusing having to essentially see familiar programs with the skater backpedalling. That isn't even a misjudgment anymore. It's a complete misidentification. Programs are a major part of a skater's career, yes, but they are not what make the skaters. Programs are merely vehicles, or tools, (I did say more on this later, and it's later) and what they do with them, the kind of life they breathe into them, is what makes them the kind of skaters they are known for. Sure, doing the same program over and over and over without strong reasons behind it can easily be seen as lazy or simply cowardly if they don't have a good reason for it, even if they were to consistently up the ante in terms of tech and layout, and sometimes, perhaps, it is. But so long as they're upping their ante, even if a skater were to stick to the same two programs their entire career, it's *not* a step back. What it is, is a form of stagnating, and while not the most exciting of choices, we all know that it's sometimes necessary.

 

As far as Hanyu is concerned, we can definitively conclude that he is the last person we should ever have the gall to label as "lazy" and " cowardly" without outing ourselves as blind and forgetful imbeciles. And since no one is doing that (here at least), even if some of us are more bitterly disappointed than others, I'm glad that none of us here are that.

 

But Hanyu has chosen to stagnate this season in terms of program choices. Let's acknowledge that. But game or no game, this is the first step, a necessary one, towards delivering clean skates of his level on a consistent basis. And I believe that if he captures the feeling of it, he might be able to evolve even further and deliver clean skates more consistently even with new programs and higher difficulty next time, thus finally breaking his old pattern. And though some of us may be more bitterly disappointed than others at this turn of event for this particular season, if he's able to deliver what he promises, and grow even more for the future, then I'm sure we'll all be extremely glad for it at the end of the day.

 

For now, we'll have to sit down and allow ourselves to think properly: would you give someone with a new program but essentially the same, or if not exactly the same, then similar, theme they've been doing since time immemorial more credit than Hanyu, who's repeating a program that he's picked out amidst the plethora of themes he's explored and given us across the last few seasons, and one that's, when compared to everyone else, warhorse or no warhorse, is quintessentially different? He's doing an ethnic program, for chrissakes, which most of the rest of the world has never seen a top contender in the field do. On Olympic ice. The fact that he even feels confident enough to give the world that is precisely because he's tested it out before *and* knows that the world is capable of accepting it. If we're going to be disappointed that his FS is a repeat, then I think we should similarly be disappointed with those who are using new programs but are essentially sticking to the same old theme they're known for. That's only fair, I feel.

 

All said, we'll all come to realize that there's no real point of contention for his choice to revisit SEIMEI. I think people are more lamenting that he'll be repeating both progs and SEIMEI just happened to be the last one announced since the ship for Chopin has sailed long ago. I'll admit I wasn't as thrilled when that was announced, much as it also deserves to be a Hanyu Oly prog. But I was also aware that LGC did a number on him and the next season is really not one to experiment, especially since he may be nearing the end of his competitive career and needs to show the world the culmination of all his effort. Knowing that, and that his choices are limited for the kind of showing he wants to give, I accepted it without complaint. *shrug* I think the guy himself most probably feels the exact same way with having to repeat his SP as well, especially since he's decided to stick with SEIMEI since day one. I'll be truthful, though, it wasn't until I saw what he made of it in the recent ice shows he did that the small disappointment fully lifted.

 

So...this is what happens when I'm kept idling in the waiting room...everyone else has to suffer torrents of word vomit. Better pray they don't keep me waiting any longer...

Thank you for this post. It's pretty much what I'm thinking mentally, but cannot fathom how to say in writing. I think as fans, we tend to forget that ultimately figure skating is a competitive sport, and our atheletes want to (or must) win at some point. And overall, this oly cycle, even with all the quads, hasn't really let us down too much on artistry. I won't name names, but there were definitely guys who were very jump-jump-jump in the previous cycles,  more so than even Nathan's Prince Igor long. 

 

I can understand the issue of Chopin, but his chopin choice didn't surprise me at all. The short program at Olys, your goal is to not be too down in terms of points, and considering the consistency of LGC, LGC was out of the question. Then there's JButt's time issue. Assuming that Yuzu does not win the SP portion ( he might not since his BV is not the highest), then the goal is to stay very close to the top score, which is easily doable with a clean Chopin. Seimei as a long, is even scarier than H&L in terms of PCS points. Considering Yuzu came back from 10 point deficits,  would you want to be the guy in front of him after the SP if your scores are very close (like 1-5 points)? Nevermind the possibility that he could win the SP outright with Chopin if anyone so much as wobbles. 

 

As for Seimei, while a fan of fresh new programs, I'm also fine with Seimei (better than R&J 3.0). Much as I love LGC and H&L, when I try to introduce new people to figure skating and Yuzu in particular, I've had the greatest success with Chopin 2.0 and Seimei. They are simply commanding programs that demand your attention, even if you know nothing about figure skating, you know greatness when you see it. 

 

After these interviews, I'm also wondering if he's going to stay to 2022 (65% possibility?)

[SparkleSalad]

15 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

That might be the one disadvantage to the re-use of Seimei. Fans will have expectations that might not be met exactly. When one is used to something, changes to that something can seem wrong rather than just different. I'm not sure Yuzu would do 5 quads if it affected the flow. Since flow is quite essential for him, I think. I'm sure he can make it work.

 

And I don't remember seeing that... do you have a link? I admit, I haven't properly watched Etude enough... it was when I was saving ice show videos that I saw what I think was its debut and it kind of blew me away. But I didn't mean re-using the exact choreography, but adapting it... well, no idea if that'd work either. I just love that kind of passion in him. But then again, I absolutely loved him in the Kobe finale, as well, he was so expansive and... I want more of that!

 

(And now I had a crazy idea... what if he did LGC as an EX and managed to do it clean every time, so then he'd decide to give it a try as an SP again and switch with Ballade and it'd go well and he'd stick to it? I can dream, right? *happily ignoring LGC Ex would be at least partly different choreography from LGC SP*)

 

I agree he'll make it work - he can make anything work - but I think he wouldn't add a 5th if it wasn't necessary to win. 4 to me seems like the perfect amount of quads to keep a good amount of variety and showcase the different character and energy of jumps in a program. Watch him prove me wrong.

 

 

I can try to find a better quality link but here it is:

 

Edit: masterful camera work, zooming in on the ice next to the guy spinning.

[Xen]

3 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

I agree he'll make it work - he can make anything work - but I think he wouldn't add a 5th if it wasn't necessary to win. 4 to me seems like the perfect amount of quads to keep a good amount of variety and showcase the different character and energy of jumps in a program. Watch him prove me wrong.

 

 

I can try to find a better quality link but here it is:

 

 

...Not as a SP, he might be too intense in the SP with this music choice.  I think given his development over the years, he can probably do a good job on etude for a long. The last part can be the ending foot step sequence. 

[KatjaThera]

18 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

I agree he'll make it work - he can make anything work - but I think he wouldn't add a 5th if it wasn't necessary to win. 4 to me seems like the perfect amount of quads to keep a good amount of variety and showcase the different character and energy of jumps in a program. Watch him prove me wrong.

 

 

I can try to find a better quality link but here it is:

 

 

Thank you very much!

 

Hmm, I see what you meant. I wonder if H&L experience would make a difference... that was a time when he was looking to develop his manliness (though it was also R&J2 time, so... not the best argument lol) so that might have had an influence. If he's going by the same idea, maybe he'll redo his old programs as exes again this year.

 

Or could he... maybe... do R&J2 as an Ex? As a reminder of the previous Olympics and maybe a chance to do it right this time? Would explain David's presence...

 

As for quads, I don't disagree. But then again, we don't know what Seimei with four quads looks like either - I think? But also, since he took out a 3A, that's basically just one and a half extra rotations overall. I know it's not as simple as that. But I think with the 3A out, he's minimizing the impact a 5th quad has on choreography and flow. Maybe... (I don't actually know what I'm talking about lol)

[SparkleSalad]

2 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

Thank you very much!

 

Hmm, I see what you meant. I wonder if H&L experience would make a difference... that was a time when he was looking to develop his manliness (though it was also R&J2 time, so... not the best argument lol) so that might have had an influence. If he's going by the same idea, maybe he'll redo his old programs as exes again this year.

 

Or could he... maybe... do R&J2 as an Ex? As a reminder of the previous Olympics and maybe a chance to do it right this time? Would explain David's presence...

 

As for quads, I don't disagree. But then again, we don't know what Seimei with four quads looks like either - I think? But also, since he took out a 3A, that's basically just one and a half extra rotations overall. I know it's not as simple as that. But I think with the 3A out, he's minimizing the impact a 5th quad has on choreography and flow. Maybe... (I don't actually know what I'm talking about lol)

 

I don't think the problem is with trying to display masculinity in his performance - he'll never be at risk of losing his femininity - just his body became more masculine and his skating became more controlled because of it. I think he's just too heavy now for Etude. You need to be a scrawny runt to pull off the lightness of that hopping and jumping, I think, and his skills and stamina are too strong to display that recklessness anymore. I really think it's a lovely program for a boy but not a man. He also looked quite tired during that EX. I don't know either. 

 

I already miss 3A x2. The most beautiful 3A in the world and we might only get one. I don't believe anything he says anymore, though.  

 

Please no more RJ2, David! 

[kaeryth]

Hmmmm... my thoughts on the differing reactions of Chopin 3.0 vs Seimei 2.0. I think we're seeing a lot more criticism about Seimei than Chopin from non-yuzu fans because it's a big threat. And I understand why. Seimei, frankly, is a powerful and intimidating program. It's already a big threat when it's skated clean with it's old layout, what more with an upgraded one? It's a program that draws you in. It's a program that during the '15-'16 season, when he skated clean back to back, even some non-yuzu fans were suddenly all "OMG Slaymei!!!". Chopin, in contrast, while also iconic can be beaten by virtue of the nature of SPs. Although interestingly enough, Chopin still holds the record for the SP score.

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

I don't think the problem is with trying to display masculinity in his performance - he'll never be at risk of losing his femininity - just his body became more masculine and his skating became more controlled because of it. I think he's just too heavy now for Etude. You need to be a scrawny runt to pull off the lightness of that hopping and jumping, I think, and his skills and stamina are too strong to display that recklessness anymore. I really think it's a lovely program for a boy but not a man. He also looked quite tired during that EX. I don't know either. 

 

I already miss 3A x2. The most beautiful 3A in the world and we might only get one. I don't believe anything he says anymore, though.  

 

Please no more RJ2, David! 

Always viewed Yuzu as more gender neutral (though that boobskirt...). It does tick me off a bit when people decide to label skaters as feminine or masculine, because it does narrow down the variety of music guys/gals can skate too .Okay, maybe the dance of the sugar plum fairy from the Nutcracker is an exclusive girls only music (unless a guy goes pink tutu on us), but there are plenty of songs that can go both ways- Rach 2, Chopin,  Carmen is possible too.  It also makes it seem that very atheltic skaters are more masculine...not really the case, because a graceful flow exit from a jump ( a la Yuzu) is no less atheltic than a muscled through jump.  Then there's the split that makes it seem more technical means more masculine, and sometimes gives people the impression that  female skaters won't need to push the technical envelope. And in the same vein, more artistic seems more feminine, so guys can get away with less artistic choreopgrahy. In that sense, I'm grateful for Yuzu, since in order to beat him, you can't short change either side

[SparkleSalad]

4 minutes ago, Xen said:

Always viewed Yuzu as more gender neutral (though that boobskirt...). It does tick me off a bit when people decide to label skaters as feminine or masculine, because it does narrow down the variety of music guys/gals can skate too .Okay, maybe the dance of the sugar plum fairy from the Nutcracker is an exclusive girls only music (unless a guy goes pink tutu on us), but there are plenty of songs that can go both ways- Rach 2, Chopin,  Carmen is possible too.  It also makes it seem that very atheltic skaters are more masculine...not really the case, because a graceful flow exit from a jump ( a la Yuzu) is no less atheltic than a muscled through jump.  Then there's the split that makes it seem more technical means more masculine, and sometimes gives people the impression that  female skaters won't need to push the technical envelope. And in the same vein, more artistic seems more feminine, so guys can get away with less artistic choreopgrahy. In that sense, I'm grateful for Yuzu, since in order to beat him, you can't short change either side

 

Well I wasn't talking about masculinity and femininity but the difference between adolescent and adult bodies and suitable choreography for those bodies. But I think it's natural for people - and skaters are people - to have masculine and feminine traits in different amounts. Some people don't have it in them to be graceful and some don't have it in them to be powerful or intimidating. Yuzuru is very lucky to have a perfect balance of both and I think that's one of the reasons his skating is so powerful and so loved. 

[Yuazz]

Sorry for being OT but... Is this a gold medal for PyeongChang Olympic? 

 

[kaeryth]

3 minutes ago, Yuazz said:

Sorry for bring OT but... Is this a gold medal for PyeongChang Olympic? 

 

 

 

Hmmmmm.... I like it better than Sochi's. Although, I can't say for certain because the lighting in the picture is horrendous. Why are they focusing on the model instead of the medal?