General Yuzuru Chat

[quadaxelwin]

3 hours ago, ICeleste said:

No. He always got higher PCs for 3x recycled Chopin than he ever did the seasons he debuted Otoñal and Let's go Crazy. Let's Go Crazy is the most difficult SP he's ever done in terms of transitions, his PE and IN were excellent, the composition of the choreography brilliant too, yet this program never got the PCs it deserved- even though it was never recycled.

(Even if it were true that judges were "marking him down for recycling", it'd still be completely unfair and against the rules)

Please stop blaming Yuzuru when he's clearly not at fault for how underscored he is. He doesn't have the right passport, that's the only explanation.

 

 

When you have a rival who never repeats both their SP and FS programs, then recycling becomes more noticeable for the judges to find an excuse for underscoring someone. Nathan never recycled any of his programs at the senior stage. Even during juniors he only recycled 1 program. That is one of his only strength and advantage he has over Yuzu. He always brings something new to the table to surprise the judges with something they have never seen before. I already said it's unfair to mark someone down for recycling, but that may be the reality of the judging system. Even Philip Hersh said he's tired of seeing Otonal again. And although he's not a judge himself, he has enough connections in the figure skating world that includes prominent judges who may feel the same way. If someone is "tired, bored" of seeing the same program again, it does affect how they score the PCS. They might mark down the performance score, composition and interpretation score. It has a chance of affecting 3/5 aspects of the PCS scoring. Everyone knows recycling a program is a disadvantage compared to someone who always tries to bring new programs to the table. New programs are brought to bring a "wow factor" to the table, to give the judges something new, fresh and unexpected. I am a Fanyu myself but if Yuzu recycles both his programs next season, then it's even more likely that the judges will be bored of it and mark his PCS down even more. As for Chopin, I think Nathan's PCS was still over-scored even then, most likely because judges were finding an excuse to over-score Nathan and one of the excuses was: Nathan never recycles, at least not on the senior circuit. I know it's not fair, but I do understand it in a way. To be honest, even though I am a huge fan of Yuzu, I get less excited about seeing Otonal this year than last year. Last year I loved it, but this year, I just was sort of bored only because I already know the choreography and music too well.

 

I think Yuzu might be missing the point. I think he might not realize that Nathan is beating him because of these reasons.

 

1. Yes Nathan's nationality does give him a boost

2. Yes Nathan's BV is very high

 

3. And yes, it is highly likely Nathan is getting fluctuated PCS because both his programs are always new. And this is an advantage no matter how hard you try to deny it. Judges always love something new. But Yuzu does not seem to realize this. 

 

I'm not saying Yuzu would have won if he had 2 new programs this year.

I'm saying 2 new programs would not have given the judges any excuse to mark down Yuzu's PCS just for recycling them 

 

 

 

And even fans have limits. If Yuzu does repeat Origin and Otonal again next year, I will be disappointed, no matter how much I love Yuzu. I think he is the most artistic and musical figure skater ever, and to have him not be more versatile to show all the different sides of him with many different types of genres before he retires would be a shame and a little bit of a waste of his artistic talent. I think Yuzu's greatest strength is his genre versatility. He can express so many different types of genres in many different ways. Whereas Nathan can't (it's what I honestly think about Nathan's artistry. He has a limited versatility to express a wide variety of music genres). I think Yuzu should play with his strengths more often. He should show the judges he is a skater capable of bringing out and beautifully executing and expressing all different types of music; tango, classics, jazz, pop, ballad, rock and many more. He has to bring the discussion to the judging table that HE is the more musically gifted, and more musically versatile skater. That Yuzu is the skater that can suit a wide range of music and choreographic styles. He can't just rely on higher BV to win. To win, he has to play to not just one, but ALL his strengths and advantages over Nathan.

And that includes bringing new and exciting, never seen before fresh programs that blows the judges away.

 

With this sort of score manipulation, I believe he needs a masterpiece program that judges are not expecting, or have never seen something similar to. 
Just like how he brought Seimei in 2015. It blew the judges away because it was something (unusual music, unusual choreo) no skater had ever tried before. 

 

 

 

P.S. As for warhorses, that doesn't count I believe. A skater choosing a warhorse is not an excuse for marking down their PCS, because every skater can express a warhorse, for example Carmen in their own way etc. 

 

But when a skater repeats THEIR OWN same program, then it becomes a recycling disadvantage.

 

 

Why else do you think skaters in all disciplines try to bring new music and new programs every year, if not for PCS score boosting?

[quadaxelwin]

16 hours ago, sweetwater said:

I am not sure how many Japanese fans you are following on twitter, but most of the negative comments I saw on the birthday cake given in the kiss and cry were mentioning only about the timing. I think many of fans in Japan at that moment were busy cheering for Yuzu and checking on-site reports instead of what anti said. This is not the first time I saw you asking to stop something because Japanese fans don't like it, or Japanese fans have different ideas, but if you agree with them, why don't you state it as your own opinion? You may be speaking for them out of kindness, but as a Japanese fan, I sometimes get baffled to see us being generalized and used in such context. Each fan on twitter has their own opinion and background and they chose how to voice it according to their point of view on their own responsibility, even though they might look alike. 

 

 

Sorry I saw this quote now. I did mention how Japanese fans were very upset at the timing of the birthday cake. 
The things that antis said was not the main point of the post, but an elaboration of the side effects of what happened as a result of Yuzu declining the cake from a little girl. I know some japanese antis twist everything Yuzu does and posts them on twitter, and some fans do screencap this and complain about it. I am sorry for translating everything they said on twitter. Sometimes I literally just translate the whole tweet. I will be a little more careful of what I translate, because what and how some JP fans feel may not be the general opinion. In general, they were very worried the whole video will be misread by the Japanese public too, because some people might view Yuzu declining a birthday cake from a little girl was "cold hearted" etc. 

 

And I translated the tweet of what might happen as a result of giving Yuzu the birthday cake at the wrong timing. I think we follow the similar fan base on twitter because on my timeline, there were many negative comments about the wrong timing to give the birthday cake too. Just like how you mentioned above in your post. 

 

I will take your post very seriously. 

Thanks for the feedback.

As for generalizing Japanese fans opinions, I only started posting about them because my whole timeline was a s**t show when fans were fighting over whether or not to sing Happy Birthday to Yuzu during Kiss and Cry. And my timeline at the time was a MESS, like scroll after scroll of japanese fans complaining, whining, subtweeting, worrying, being frustrated. I guess I did generalize they were rather collectively angry at the time in relation to this whole kiss and cry birthday surprise.

  

Thank you for your opinion. Next time, I will only say what I think the majority are saying, rather than include every little detail that some japanese fans are saying in regards to issues like this one. 

[Danibellerika]

1 hour ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

When you have a rival who never repeats both their SP and FS programs, then recycling becomes more noticeable for the judges to find an excuse for underscoring someone. Nathan never recycled any of his programs at the senior stage. Even during juniors he only recycled 1 program. That is one of his only strength and advantage he has over Yuzu. He always brings something new to the table to surprise the judges with something they have never seen before. I already said it's unfair to mark someone down for recycling, but that may be the reality of the judging system. Even Philip Hersh said he's tired of seeing Otonal again. And although he's not a judge himself, he has enough connections in the figure skating world that includes prominent judges who may feel the same way. If someone is "tired, bored" of seeing the same program again, it does affect how they score the PCS. They might mark down the performance score, composition and interpretation score. It has a chance of affecting 3/5 aspects of the PCS scoring. Everyone knows recycling a program is a disadvantage compared to someone who always tries to bring new programs to the table. New programs are brought to bring a "wow factor" to the table, to give the judges something new, fresh and unexpected. I am a Fanyu myself but if Yuzu recycles both his programs next season, then it's even more likely that the judges will be bored of it and mark his PCS down even more. As for Chopin, I think Nathan's PCS was still over-scored even then, most likely because judges were finding an excuse to over-score Nathan and one of the excuses was: Nathan never recycles, at least not on the senior circuit. I know it's not fair, but I do understand it in a way. To be honest, even though I am a huge fan of Yuzu, I get less excited about seeing Otonal this year than last year. Last year I loved it, but this year, I just was sort of bored only because I already know the choreography and music too well.

 

I think Yuzu might be missing the point. I think he might not realize that Nathan is beating him because of these reasons.

 

1. Yes Nathan's nationality does give him a boost

2. Yes Nathan's BV is very high

 

3. And yes, it is highly likely Nathan is getting fluctuated PCS because both his programs are always new. And this is an advantage no matter how hard you try to deny it. Judges always love something new. But Yuzu does not seem to realize this. 

 

I'm not saying Yuzu would have won if he had 2 new programs this year.

I'm saying 2 new programs would not have given the judges any excuse to mark down Yuzu's PCS just for recycling them 

 

 

 

And even fans have limits. If Yuzu does repeat Origin and Otonal again next year, I will be disappointed, no matter how much I love Yuzu. I think he is the most artistic and musical figure skater ever, and to have him not be more versatile to show all the different sides of him with many different types of genres before he retires would be a shame and a little bit of a waste of his artistic talent. I think Yuzu's greatest strength is his genre versatility. He can express so many different types of genres in many different ways. Whereas Nathan can't (it's what I honestly think about Nathan's artistry. He has a limited versatility to express a wide variety of music genres). I think Yuzu should play with his strengths more often. He should show the judges he is a skater capable of bringing out and beautifully executing and expressing all different types of music; tango, classics, jazz, pop, ballad, rock and many more. He has to bring the discussion to the judging table that HE is the more musically gifted, and more musically versatile skater. That Yuzu is the skater that can suit a wide range of music and choreographic styles. He can't just rely on higher BV to win. To win, he has to play to not just one, but ALL his strengths and advantages over Nathan.

And that includes bringing new and exciting, never seen before fresh programs that blows the judges away.

 

With this sort of score manipulation, I believe he needs a masterpiece program that judges are not expecting, or have never seen something similar to. 
Just like how he brought Seimei in 2015. It blew the judges away because it was something (unusual music, unusual choreo) no skater had ever tried before. 

 

You forgot a 4th one.  Consistency.  If you keep skating relatively clean your score will keep rising (SC vs NHK's SP crap notwithstanding).  Look at Kostornaia just this season. Med past seasons, Zag in Olympic season.  Yuzu has to deliver when it matters and do it all the time. 2 clean back to back programs are now a must and as much as I love him, we have to reach back to GPF 2015 for that.  It's a tall order, but if anybody CAN ultimately do it, it's him.  

[KatjaThera]

39 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

When you have a rival who never repeats both their SP and FS programs, then recycling becomes more noticeable for the judges to find an excuse for underscoring someone. Nathan never recycled any of his programs at the senior stage. Even during juniors he only recycled 1 program. That is one of his only strength and advantage he has over Yuzu. He always brings something new to the table to surprise the judges with something they have never seen before. I already said it's unfair to mark someone down for recycling, but that may be the reality of the judging system. Even Philip Hersh said he's tired of seeing Otonal again. And although he's not a judge himself, he has enough connections in the figure skating world that includes prominent judges who may feel the same way. If someone is "tired, bored" of seeing the same program again, it does affect how they score the PCS. They might mark down the performance score, composition and interpretation score. It has a chance of affecting 3/5 aspects of the PCS scoring. Everyone knows recycling a program is a disadvantage compared to someone who always tries to bring new programs to the table. New programs are brought to bring a "wow factor" to the table, to give the judges something new, fresh and unexpected. I am a Fanyu myself but if Yuzu recycles both his programs next season, then it's even more likely that the judges will be bored of it and mark his PCS down even more. As for Chopin, I think Nathan's PCS was still over-scored even then, most likely because judges were finding an excuse to over-score Nathan and one of the excuses was: Nathan never recycles, at least not on the senior circuit. I know it's not fair, but I do understand it in a way. To be honest, even though I am a huge fan of Yuzu, I get less excited about seeing Otonal this year than last year. Last year I loved it, but this year, I just was sort of bored only because I already know the choreography and music too well.

 

I think Yuzu might be missing the point. I think he might not realize that Nathan is beating him because of these reasons.

 

1. Yes Nathan's nationality does give him a boost

2. Yes Nathan's BV is very high

 

3. And yes, it is highly likely Nathan is getting fluctuated PCS because both his programs are always new. And this is an advantage no matter how hard you try to deny it. Judges always love something new. But Yuzu does not seem to realize this. 

 

I'm not saying Yuzu would have won if he had 2 new programs this year.

I'm saying 2 new programs would not have given the judges any excuse to mark down Yuzu's PCS just for recycling them 

 

 

 

And even fans have limits. If Yuzu does repeat Origin and Otonal again next year, I will be disappointed, no matter how much I love Yuzu. I think he is the most artistic and musical figure skater ever, and to have him not be more versatile to show all the different sides of him with many different types of genres before he retires would be a shame and a little bit of a waste of his artistic talent. 

If judges are incapable of seeing the differences between this year's Otonal and Origin and last year's Otonal and Origin, there is absolutely nothing Yuzu can do to get the points he deserves. He UPGRADED the content of his programs, which, frankly, is more than most of the field has done, new programs or not.

 

Even if he had new programs, they would find other ways to excuse the low PCS. It would probably be "well, the program is new to him, so he's not fully used to it, so of course he won't get high PCS off the bat!"

 

Also, judges don't love new stuff. Fans do. Judges are happy to sit there listening to same old warhorses they've been listening to for ages. If judges were open to new they wouldn't think USBs are the antichrist. They would be open to using technology to make THEIR life easier. And they would really really hate warhorses, which they don't. And seriously, how many Schindler's Lists are there in the field this year? Do all of them get docked on PCS? What about Blues for Klook? Why would any skater choose to do music that has been skated to before if this were a known fact? Yuzu is skating to music that has been used twice in recent history, as far as I know, at least. Otonal, which was used by Yuzu and Johnny, and Origin, which was used by Yuzu and Plush. That, IMO, beats all the other stuff that's been done a gazillion times.

 

At Olys, Yuzu still had the PCS advantage. Which is why he knew he could win. Yes, a clean Nathan in the SP would have probably forced him to bring in the Loop, but the PCS advantage still existed. When Yuzu did LGC and H&L, his scores dropped. The funny thing is, the justification then was that LGC was too modern for the judges who liked classical stuff, and H&L was too quiet and people couldn't get into it. Now, he's doing classical stuff that only two people have done before, but it's outdated. Maybe he should do classical+modern bad mashups like Daniil's stuff to win. That certainly seems to be popular with the judges.

 

Oh and another thing. If judges would get tired of programs, then PCS would be dropping as the season goes. Which is not what happens. Most skaters' PCS increases towards the end of the season, even when for many of them, the programs get emptier. Except Yuzu, his programs generally got richer as the season progressed. Maybe there are others, too, but Nathan is not one of them. At least not so far.

 

Lastly, I'm one of the people who were praying for new programs even as I went into Toronto. And yes, I was vaguely disappointed, until I saw how he further developed those programs. I'm also one of those people who was really upset when he chose to do Chopin for Oly season. And I don't even like that program. But I now think the Oly Chopin is probably the most amazing SP ever, simply because every single gesture, element, movement fits the music perfectly. And you don't reach that level of perfection over one season. I would rather see beautiful, perfected programs than random skating and jumps and hey, it's a new record, what more do you want?

 

And at the end of the day, I want Yuzu to do what he wants and he feels fits his philosophy better. And if that means he will continue doing Otonal and Origin for the rest of his life, while personally disappointed, I will fiercely defend his right to do so. He doesn't owe anyone anything anymore.

[Salior]

15 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

If judges are incapable of seeing the differences between this year's Otonal and Origin and last year's Otonal and Origin, there is absolutely nothing Yuzu can do to get the points he deserves. He UPGRADED the content of his programs, which, frankly, is more than most of the field has done, new programs or not.

 

Even if he had new programs, they would find other ways to excuse the low PCS. It would probably be "well, the program is new to him, so he's not fully used to it, so of course he won't get high PCS off the bat!"

 

Also, judges don't love new stuff. Fans do. Judges are happy to sit there listening to same old warhorses they've been listening to for ages. If judges were open to new they wouldn't think USBs are the antichrist. They would be open to using technology to make THEIR life easier. And they would really really hate warhorses, which they don't. And seriously, how many Schindler's Lists are there in the field this year? Do all of them get docked on PCS? What about Blues for Klook? Why would any skater choose to do music that has been skated to before if this were a known fact? Yuzu is skating to music that has been used twice in recent history, as far as I know, at least. Otonal, which was used by Yuzu and Johnny, and Origin, which was used by Yuzu and Plush. That, IMO, beats all the other stuff that's been done a gazillion times.

 

At Olys, Yuzu still had the PCS advantage. Which is why he knew he could win. Yes, a clean Nathan in the SP would have probably forced him to bring in the Loop, but the PCS advantage still existed. When Yuzu did LGC and H&L, his scores dropped. The funny thing is, the justification then was that LGC was too modern for the judges who liked classical stuff, and H&L was too quiet and people couldn't get into it. Now, he's doing classical stuff that only two people have done before, but it's outdated. Maybe he should do classical+modern bad mashups like Daniil's stuff to win. That certainly seems to be popular with the judges.

 

Oh and another thing. If judges would get tired of programs, then PCS would be dropping as the season goes. Which is not what happens. Most skaters' PCS increases towards the end of the season, even when for many of them, the programs get emptier. Except Yuzu, his programs generally got richer as the season progressed. Maybe there are others, too, but Nathan is not one of them. At least not so far.

 

Lastly, I'm one of the people who were praying for new programs even as I went into Toronto. And yes, I was vaguely disappointed, until I saw how he further developed those programs. I'm also one of those people who was really upset when he chose to do Chopin for Oly season. And I don't even like that program. But I now think the Oly Chopin is probably the most amazing SP ever, simply because every single gesture, element, movement fits the music perfectly. And you don't reach that level of perfection over one season. I would rather see beautiful, perfected programs than random skating and jumps and hey, it's a new record, what more do you want?

 

And at the end of the day, I want Yuzu to do what he wants and he feels fits his philosophy better. And if that means he will continue doing Otonal and Origin for the rest of his life, while personally disappointed, I will fiercely defend his right to do so. He doesn't owe anyone anything anymore.

 

Yes. I have to say that each program he repeats gets upgraded a LOT in terms of transitions and his connection to the music. I believe he cut down the crossovers in Chopin from 20? to 11 when he did Chopin 3.0. Otonal and Origin got very obvious composition and transition upgrades too, which his skating skills even improved visibly to someone like me who is not good at recognising steps. If I can see the difference but the judges can’t, they need to do retraining. Sometimes I wonder if they can actually read the step sequence maps the fans made or are they just marking based on “feelings”, which does seem like the case for the Italian judge this Men’s GPF

 

It saddens me that these skating skills are not appreciated as much as before. In the past you have to be Patrick Chan to get 9 in components. Now quadsters with simplified layouts can get 9.75 easily. It’s becoming more like a reputation and consistency score, something’s thats very obvious if you compare Nathan and Yuzu’s GOE on 4Lz. Judges are not used to seeing Yuzu doing 4Lz so they immediately have a bias to apply lower marks, even though they shouldn’t. Which criteria didn’t hit at least +4 GOE? Yet a few judges have +3. Did Nate have steps and unexpected entries? Yet he easily gets +5 because of consistency

[quadaxelwin]

26 minutes ago, KatjaThera said:

If judges are incapable of seeing the differences between this year's Otonal and Origin and last year's Otonal and Origin, there is absolutely nothing Yuzu can do to get the points he deserves. He UPGRADED the content of his programs, which, frankly, is more than most of the field has done, new programs or not.

 

Even if he had new programs, they would find other ways to excuse the low PCS. It would probably be "well, the program is new to him, so he's not fully used to it, so of course he won't get high PCS off the bat!"

 

Also, judges don't love new stuff. Fans do. Judges are happy to sit there listening to same old warhorses they've been listening to for ages. If judges were open to new they wouldn't think USBs are the antichrist. They would be open to using technology to make THEIR life easier. And they would really really hate warhorses, which they don't. And seriously, how many Schindler's Lists are there in the field this year? Do all of them get docked on PCS? What about Blues for Klook? Why would any skater choose to do music that has been skated to before if this were a known fact? Yuzu is skating to music that has been used twice in recent history, as far as I know, at least. Otonal, which was used by Yuzu and Johnny, and Origin, which was used by Yuzu and Plush. That, IMO, beats all the other stuff that's been done a gazillion times.

 

At Olys, Yuzu still had the PCS advantage. Which is why he knew he could win. Yes, a clean Nathan in the SP would have probably forced him to bring in the Loop, but the PCS advantage still existed. When Yuzu did LGC and H&L, his scores dropped. The funny thing is, the justification then was that LGC was too modern for the judges who liked classical stuff, and H&L was too quiet and people couldn't get into it. Now, he's doing classical stuff that only two people have done before, but it's outdated. Maybe he should do classical+modern bad mashups like Daniil's stuff to win. That certainly seems to be popular with the judges.

 

Oh and another thing. If judges would get tired of programs, then PCS would be dropping as the season goes. Which is not what happens. Most skaters' PCS increases towards the end of the season, even when for many of them, the programs get emptier. Except Yuzu, his programs generally got richer as the season progressed. Maybe there are others, too, but Nathan is not one of them. At least not so far.

 

Lastly, I'm one of the people who were praying for new programs even as I went into Toronto. And yes, I was vaguely disappointed, until I saw how he further developed those programs. I'm also one of those people who was really upset when he chose to do Chopin for Oly season. And I don't even like that program. But I now think the Oly Chopin is probably the most amazing SP ever, simply because every single gesture, element, movement fits the music perfectly. And you don't reach that level of perfection over one season. I would rather see beautiful, perfected programs than random skating and jumps and hey, it's a new record, what more do you want?

 

And at the end of the day, I want Yuzu to do what he wants and he feels fits his philosophy better. And if that means he will continue doing Otonal and Origin for the rest of his life, while personally disappointed, I will fiercely defend his right to do so. He doesn't owe anyone anything anymore.

 

 

P.S. As for warhorses, that doesn't count I believe. A skater choosing a warhorse is not an excuse for marking down their PCS, because every skater can express a warhorse, for example Carmen in their own unique and different new way etc. 

I would love to see Yuzu's own version of Nessun dorma. And I think some judges won't mind Yuzu doing a warhorse program. I myself would want to see Yuzu do a warhorse next season. But I don't want to see it twice. This is what I mean by not recycling. Warhorses have nothing to do with recycling, because what I meant by recycling is a skater recycling their own music and program and choreography from previous seasons.  

 

 

But when a skater repeats THEIR OWN same program, then it becomes a recycling disadvantage.

Because most likely it is the same choreography, same spins, same step sequences with the same music cut, with maybe a changed jump layout with maybe a different costume. There may be subtle changes, but they are small changes that not many people notice on the spot

The judges know the program, the fans know it, we know what's coming next too well because we've seen it for a whole season. Then judges might find an excuse to say it gets "old or boring"

 

Why else do you think skaters in all disciplines try to bring new music and new programs every year, if not for PCS score boosting?

- This comment is kind of too vague. But let me explain. 

Imagine if Yuzu repeated Chopin 4 times, but it gets better every season. He perfects it every season. Would you still want to see it for 4 seasons, and miss out on all the new music, choreo that he could have tried in replacement? Would you still want to see the upgraded perfect chopin even if you had to see it for 4 whole seasons?

I think the majority would answer no. It's just the human psychology. We naturally prefer change, variety, something new to see. 

 

The "But Yuzu recycles BOTH his programs, and he does it way too often, and it gets so boring to watch the same program again and again, there is nothing fresh or exciting or new to see" discussion always comes up among Yuzu haters, antis, fans of Nathan, US fans because it is an excuse yes.

It is an excuse to mark Yuzu's PCS down.

I think it is an excuse to also over evaluate Nathan's PCS in comparison. Because Nathan never recycles his programs, at least not yet on the senior circuit. 

 

Is it fair? No. 

Is it understandable? Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Salior]

6 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

P.S. As for warhorses, that doesn't count I believe. A skater choosing a warhorse is not an excuse for marking down their PCS, because every skater can express a warhorse, for example Carmen in their own unique and different new way etc. 

I would love to see Yuzu's own version of Nessun dorma. And I think some judges won't mind Yuzu doing a warhorse program. I myself would want to see Yuzu do a warhorse next season. But I don't want to see it twice. This is what I mean by not recycling. Warhorses have nothing to do with recycling, because what I meant by recycling is a skater recycling their own music and program and choreography from previous seasons.  

 

 

But when a skater repeats THEIR OWN same program, then it becomes a recycling disadvantage.

Because most likely it is the same choreography, same spins, same step sequences with the same music cut, with maybe a changed jump layout with maybe a different costume. There may be subtle changes, but they are small changes that not many people notice on the spot

The judges know it, the fans know it, we know what's coming next too well because we've seen it for a whole season. 

 

Why else do you think skaters in all disciplines try to bring new music and new programs every year, if not for PCS score boosting?

- This comment is kind of too vague. But let me explain. 

Imagine if Yuzu repeated Chopin 4 times, but it gets better every season. He perfects it every season. Would you still want to see it for 4 seasons, and miss out on all the new music, choreo that he could have tried in replacement? Would you still want to see the upgraded perfect chopin even if you had to see it for 4 whole seasons?

I think the majority would answer no. It's just the human psychology. We naturally prefer change, variety, something new to see. 

 

The "But Yuzu recycles BOTH his programs, and he does it way too often, and it gets so boring to watch the same program again and again, there is nothing fresh or exciting or new to see" discussion always comes up among Yuzu haters, antis, fans of Nathan, US fans because it is an excuse yes.

It is an excuse to mark Yuzu's PCS down. I think it is an excuse to also over evaluate Nathan in comparison. Is it fair? No. 

Is it understandable? Yes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think you’re putting a lot of your own interpretation in these things. Shizuka and many others repeat their programs 3 times, but no one saw a drop in PCS. Alina repeated her junior program for Olympics yet her PCS shot up like crazy. The “excuse” for the current penalty is just politicking. No judges takes PCS seriously anymore, you can look at the skatingscores data and see how obvious the “coalitions” was. The Italian judge this GPF too, it’s just a tool for them to prop up their favourites without having to justify it like BV. If Yuzu was American, Russian or Canadian I bet you his PCS will shot through the roof regardless of what he does

[quadaxelwin]

5 minutes ago, Salior said:

 

I think you’re putting a lot of your own interpretation in these things. Shizuka and many others repeat their programs 3 times, but no one saw a drop in PCS. Alina repeated her junior program for Olympics yet her PCS shot up like crazy. The “excuse” for the current penalty is just politicking. No judges takes PCS seriously anymore 

 

Yeah it is politicking. I'm saying it is unfair politics, but it's a way they find excuses to mark him down for PCS.

Judges scrutinize Yuzu's programs to find excuses or flaws to mark down, and most likely they find his recylcing irritating, whereas they find Nathan's new programs more fresh and more appealing by whatever their standards are. 

 

I don't know about Arakawa, but isn't Alina an exception? She was the perfect young age of 15 for the Russian fed to boost her PCS scores up in case Zhenya bombed at olympics. It is politics yes. But at least Alina had a new Short Program for olympics. She didn't repeat both her programs.  

[Salior]

10 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

Yeah it is politicking. I'm saying it is unfair politics, but it's a way they find excuses to mark him down for PCS.

Judges scrutinize Yuzu's programs to find excuses or flaws to mark down, and most likely they find his recylcing irritating, whereas they find Nathan's new programs more fresh and more appealing by whatever their standards are. 

We cannot say what is most likely or not as an outsider, unless you happen to know the judges themselves. Many Russian officials still prefer Yuzu’s skating as seen during their interaction after GPF. It’s true that Nathan’s ChSq gets higher GOE, but personally I think the nationality is a much bigger factor than whatever excuse they try to come up with. Even with new programs they’d mark him down the same because “he didn’t fit in yet”, like what happened in the 16-17 season. Personally I think the 3 biggest factor is

 

1. Nationality. Boyang had similar achievements with Nate when he started, but his PCS remained a solid 10 marks below Yuzu, while Nate’s shot up by 5 marks within the season, and more than 10 marks across seasons.

 

2. Results reputation (the more you win, the more you’ll keep winning due to memory bias of the judges in the scene. Yuzu haven’t been in competitions a lot, which allowed Nate to win and nab the advantage. If he came in as the 6x GPF champion (which is very possible for the last 2 years) things might’ve been different. Evgenia missed one GPF and her Olympic fate was sealed for her. 

 

3. Consistency (a very small factor compared to the other 2, but still significant somehow if all else is equal. Just see Dima vs Samarin)

[quadaxelwin]

8 minutes ago, Salior said:

We cannot say what is most likely or not as an outsider, unless you happen to know the judges themselves. Many Russian officials still prefer Yuzu’s skating as seen during their interaction after GPF. It’s true that Nathan’s ChSq gets higher GOE, but personally I think the nationality is a much bigger factor than whatever excuse they try to come up with. Even with new programs they’d mark him down the same because “he didn’t fit in yet” 

 

 

Yes I see your point. I'm only basing my opinions off what most people who tried to defend Nathan's PCS scores over Yuzu's said why Yuzu is getting underscored in PCS. I think their excuse is bad too. I think marking down someone for recycled programs is pathetic too (although understandable why that might happen). And whilst I know not to trust what TSL said about this, they do know the judges personally (some of them). *According to them they even know some judges who judge adult competitions as well as international competitions. 

And what TSL said was:

 

"When push comes to shove between Yuzu and Nathan, the judges will bring up that Yuzu is repeating both his programs this year"

 

I know TSL is a bunch of garbage, but sometimes they do know things we don't. 

 

And yes I know there are exceptions to the rule that some skaters' PCS rises even though they repeat their program.

But how many times have you guys heard people complaining about Ashley Wagner always repeating that program of hers? (I forgot the title, but at one time people were going on and on about it in forums). A skater building a career reputation of recycling programs over and over is not a good look. 

I think Yuzu has built a reputation in the skating community of recycling his programs many times, and whilst some judges won't mind, there may be judges who do. 

[Salior]

21 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

Yes I see your point. I'm only basing my opinions off what most people who tried to defend Nathan's PCS scores over Yuzu's said why Yuzu is getting underscored in PCS. I think their excuse is bad too. I think marking down someone for recycled programs is pathetic too (although understandable why that might happen). And whilst I know not to trust what TSL said about this, they do know the judges personally (some of them). *According to them they even know some judges who judge adult competitions as well as international competitions. 

And what TSL said was:

 

"When push comes to shove between Yuzu and Nathan, the judges will bring up that Yuzu is repeating both his programs this year"

 

I know TSL is a bunch of garbage, but sometimes they do know things we don't. 

 

And yes I know there are exceptions to the rule that some skaters' PCS rises even though they repeat their program.

But how many times have you guys heard people complaining about Ashley Wagner always repeating that program of hers? (I forgot the title, but at one time people were going on and on about it in forums). 

I think Yuzu has built a reputation off recycling his programs many times, and whilst some judges won't mind, there may be judges who do. 

Yes TSL is just forming their own opinions, then finding reasons to support it. That’s hardly a good conclusion to make, and I feel sorry for whoever believes them. If this happens in research, there’d be outrage over the quality of the conclusion. You don’t conclude that people like to eat peanuts, then look for evidence to support it. You look at the evidence then find out what it tells you, while being prepared to accept that your hypothesis might be wrong or even irrelevant. But for fs no one cares about the truth and integrity of their opinions it seems. 

 

Let them be, it just revealed their ignorance and short term memory of figure skating, where they seem to have no idea how things are like for the rest of the field, yet still pretend to be an expert based on their narrow views. If they think Yuzu has a reputation for repeating his programs, then they haven’t watched figure skating for the last decade, and have no right to make declarative statements like that.

[quadaxelwin]

Just now, Salior said:

Yes TSL is just forming their own opinions, then finding reasons to support it. That’s hardly a good conclusion to make, and I feel sorry for whoever believes them. If this happens in science, there’d be outrage over the quality of the conclusion, but for fs no one cares about the truth and integrity of their opinions it seems. 

 

Let them be, it just revealed their ignorance and short term memory of figure skating, where they seem to have no idea how things are like for the rest of the field, yet still pretend to be an expert based on their narrow views. 

 

 

Yes I do hear this many times, and yet I find myself listening to them whenever they talk about Yuzu. I will take your feedback very seriously and try to implement them into my posts next time. 

 

Let me ask you this, because I would love to hear your opinion, not mine.

 

How would you feel though if Yuzu were repeating both his programs again next year?

Do you personally think judges will mark Yuzu's PCS down for recycling them again next year?

[Salior]

17 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

Yes I do hear this many times, and yet I find myself listening to them whenever they talk about Yuzu. I will take your feedback very seriously and try to implement them into my posts next time. 

 

Let me ask you this, because I would love to hear your opinion, not mine.

 

How would you feel though if Yuzu were repeating both his programs again next year?

Do you personally think judges will mark Yuzu's PCS down for recycling them again next year?

I think it is very unlikely, since I doubt he’d keep going if he cannot perfect it for more than a season. He is injury free so far as well, and his reasoning this year was because he was out of competition a lot last year. He never perfected Phantom and Lets Go Crazy I think, yet he never repeated them. Usually he repeats something when there’s something he’d like to focus on, like using his best WR programs for Olympics as a declaration and to scare his rivals, PW because it was a good fit for the OG, Chopin because he was injured the year before and would be less stressful to keep attempting upgraded layouts if he only has to learn one new program, Otonal and Origin because he’s injured last year as well.

 

If he forms bad memories of these programs this year, I doubt he would continue, look at LGC and Phantom, he never even repeated them in EX. If he forms good memories then there’s no reason to continue using them because the chapter is finally closed with a high note, and he achieved his goals of paying respect to his idols. I suspect he will land the 4A this Worlds and retire. He seems very worn out in this quad race against Nathan at this age, and after landing 4A he’ll have achieved the mark he wanted to. He said himself he won’t go to the Olympics if he can’t win. 

 

Even if in the 0.01% chance he did repeat, he’ll develop and change the program such that those with an eye for figure skating will appreciate it regardless. I hated Notte Stellata in 16-18, but this latest one really changed and grew so much I was shocked. Judges who actually judge won’t let it affect them. Judges who let this kind of things affect them won’t judge him correctly anyway even if he changed his program, like in the 16-17 season. 

[quadaxelwin]

14 minutes ago, Salior said:

I think it is very unlikely, since I doubt he’d keep going if he cannot perfect it for more than a season. He is injury free so far as well, and his reasoning this year was because he was out of competition a lot last year. He never perfected Phantom and Lets Go Crazy I think, yet he never repeated them. Usually he repeats something when there’s something he’d like to focus on, like using his best WR programs for Olympics as a declaration and to scare his rivals, PW because it was a good fit for the OG, Chopin because he was injured the year before and would be less stressful to keep attempting upgraded layouts if he only has to learn one new program, Otonal and Origin because he’s injured last year as well.

 

If he forms bad memories of these programs this year, I doubt he would continue, look at LGC and Phantom, he never even repeated them in EX. If he forms good memories then there’s no reason to continue using them because the chapter is finally closed with a high note, and he achieved his goals of paying respect to his idols. I suspect he will land the 4A this Worlds and retire. He seems very worn out in this quad race against Nathan at this age, and after landing 4A he’ll have achieved the mark he wanted to. He said himself he won’t go to the Olympics if he can’t win. 

 

Even if in the 0.01% chance he did repeat, he’ll develop and change the program such that those with an eye for it will appreciate it regardless. I hated Notte Stellata in 16-18, but this latest one really changed and grew so much I was shocked. Judges who actually judge won’t let it affect them. Judges who let this kind of things affect them won’t judge him correctly anyway even if he changed his program, like in the 16-17 season. 

 

 

Thanks for your opinion. Didn't he recently say at a press conference his dream is to land all 6 quads in a program?

I think he might not retire so soon, as he has a high goal. And to declare that publicly at a press con, sort of tells me he is staying for a while.

 

On another topic before I go lurking again...

Those stalkers who stalked Yuzu whilst he was walking with Rika, Shun and Yuma. OMG. 

Maybe this is why he can't even go outside in Toronto, because these stalkers know where he trains and probably will follow him even if he goes out to the park in Toronto or something. I feel really sorry for him because to live a life where you can't even have a tourist night in Torino because of stalking fans will be such a nightmare. I once heard he only stays in his hotel and doesn't go watch ladies competitions live anymore when he goes competing overseas. I once saw a 2010~2011 documentary about Yuzu strolling around with Tatsuki Machida in Red Square in Moscow as a tourist. There were no stalkers then. The 2 skaters were taking pics around Moscow and it seemed Yuzu could travel and go out in the city after the competition was over. I remember it was a documentary aired after Rostelecom Cup. The last time he went to a ladies competition live was 2014 sochi ladies free program. There are photos of him cheering for Kanako in the VIP seats. Ever since then, I've never seen him watch events live. Such a shame because sometimes top ladies skaters like Eteri girls can get to watch Yuzu compete live without being mobbed. Maybe he can't go watch competitions live after he finishes his event because of all these stalkers?

 

Such a shame to know someone can't even go for a normal night stroll even after the competition is over. This is very shocking. I love seeing instagram pics from skaters who go touring the competition host city after they finish their free program. But Yuzu probably can't ever go tourist spotting anymore like he used to in 2010 ~ 2011

[Salior]

2 minutes ago, quadaxelwin said:

 

 

Thanks for your opinion. Didn't he recently say at a press conference his dream is to land all 6 quads in a program?

I think he might not retire so soon, as he has a high goal. And to declare that publicly at a press con, sort of tells me he is staying for a while.

 

On another topic before I go lurking again...

Those stalkers who stalked Yuzu whilst he was walking with Rika, Shun and Yuma. OMG. 

Maybe this is why he can't even go outside in Toronto, because these stalkers know where he trains and probably will follow him even if he goes out to the park in Toronto or something. I feel really sorry because to live a life where you can't even have a tourist night in Torino because of stalking fans will be such a nightmare. I once heard he only stays in his hotel and doesn't go watch ladies competitions live anymore. The last time he went to a ladies competition live was 2014 sochi ladies free program. Ever since then, I've never seen him watch events live. Such a shame because sometimes top ladies skaters like Eteri girls can get to watch Yuzu compete live without being mobbed. Maybe he can't go watch competitions live after he finishes his event because of all these stalkers?

Such a shame to know someone can't even go for a night normal stroll even after the competition is over. This is very shocking.  

That was before his GPF loss and his historical record being shattered lol. I won’t be surprised if he holds different views now.