General Yuzuru Chat

[meoima]

10 hours ago, yuzuuu said:

There are many people saying that it's the right choice for yuzu because it sort of provided a base value for judges. They can't fudge up the scores as much as they want to if yuzu gives the same (or better) quality as the previous Chopins. Even more so with the layout upgrades.

1) It would be the most ideal to have a new program which suits him and he can skate cleanly many times. But considering the crazy layout and pressure he is going to suffer (yes, why are his fans ignoring the fact that Yuzuru will go to Olympic as the reigning WC and Olympic Champion and WHOLE Japan and WHOLE skating world's pressure on him)... I can see that Chopin 3.0 is NOT a bad choice.

 

2) As it has been proven before (and I have repeated it many times), it is better for Yuzuru to ditch the weak combo that he messed up at the test event (aka 4CC). Yuna fell the 3Lo at 4CC test event at Vancouver, one year later she ditched the 3Lo and went clean and won (of course the rule those time allowed her to do three 2As). But anyway men have more options thanks to quads and 3As, so it is a blessing for us that Yuzuru can do 4T3T in the second half instead of 4S3T in the first half. 

 

3) Yuzuru certainly has the plan to upgrade his layout even more, but for now, skating consistently is more important. I am sure he still practices 4lz for that reason. If his 4lo//3A 4T3T Chopin goes clean but still gets the same score as other guys, he will throw in the 4lz. Or he might bring out the 4lz right away at the beginning of the season, who knows. But for now, his top priority is to skate clean SP to keep himself in the top flight for LP.  And that is a correct strategy since he has not had a clean SP before the judge since March 2016.

[xeyra]

15 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

I guess it is possible he's decided to use the SP to hang on to as many points as possible with the impression of clean programs, and then count on the LP to boost him back up. This too is a risky strategy but it might actually be the best choice for him, if the SP has a mental block on it.

 

One thing that's been said that makes sense in the idea of a safer, even if slightly underscored comparatively, SP is the fact that it'll keep him in later order in the FS. At this point, even a layout without 4Lz, as it stands, would still be higher in tech than Patrick or Javi's, so he'd score above them, everyone going clean. Boyang can still increase his BV but he's not going to get many PCS points quite yet, even (and maybe especially because) repeating Spiderman. Nathan and/or Shoma are the ones with the higher BV and competitive PCS that might eventually surpass Yuzu in the SP standings but it'd still keep him in top 3 standing. 

 

It's a strategy. Not sure if it's the specific way he and his team are thinking, but it's a valid strategy. The FS, though, will be decisive in any case. So I'm glad he's gotten a better feel for his FS and his stamina this past season. It's going to be very important. 

[Floria]

hace 7 minutos , xeyra said:

 

I agree the 4S3T in the SP ended up being a mental block and so I understand avoiding it. But I can't help but think that it must feel like a defeat to Yuzu, one of those walls he just couldn't climb through. I am happy, though, that it seemed to become less of a problem in his FS by the end of the season, so he doesn't lose confidence in the combo entirely. In the combo and in 4S itself. 

 

I hope he returns to it in a future SP post-Olympics, where the pressure might be lessened. 

I also agree that 4S3T became a real problem and it is good he wants to avoid it now. It maybe interpreted as a defeat (although temporary I believe). But sometimes being stubborn is not the smartest thing to do. He insisted with the combo and paid a great price for it, he lost his faith in SP and probably is cautious in excess now.

[KatjaThera]

1 minute ago, meoima said:

1) It would be the most ideal to have a new program which suits him and he can skate cleanly many times. But considering the crazy layout and pressure he is going to suffer (yes, why are his fans ignoring the fact that Yuzuru will go to Olympic as the reigning WC and Olympic Champion and WHOLE Japan and WHOLE skating world's pressure on him)... I can see that Chopin 3.0 is NOT a bad choice.

2) As it has been proven before (and I have repeated it many times), it is better for Yuzuru to ditch the weak combo that he messed up at the test event (aka 4CC). Yuna felt in the 3Lo at 4CC test event at Vancouver, one year later she ditched the 3Lo and went clean and won (of course the rule those time allowed her to do three 2As). But anyway men have more options thanks to quads and 3As, so it is a blessing for us that Yuzuru can do 4T3T in the second half instead of 4S3T in the first half. 

3) Yuzuru certainly has the plan to upgrade his layout even more, but for now, skating consistently is more important. I am sure he still practices 4lz for that reason. If his 4lo//3A 4T3T Chopin goes clean but still gets the same score as other guys, he will throw in the 4lz. Or he might bring out the 4lz right away at the beginning of the season, who knows. But for now, his top priority is to skate clean SP to keep himself in the top flight for LP. 

Personally, I wonder if Chopin itself isn't another pressure. If he messes it up once or twice and ends up with another mental block, I think it'd be a lot worse on Chopin than LGC or another program. Of course, that's a lot of negative ifs, but Chopin has a legacy. And even if he upgrades it, there'll be a lot of expectation on him to be perfect all the time. Which, he's human, so he can't be. And I think that pressure will be bigger with Chopin than a new program - that people naturally wouldn't expect to be perfect out of the box, even if it is Yuzu's. It's can be a double edged sword, I think.

 

However, you are usually right and I very much hope you will be this time, too and we will have all worried and lost hair for nothing!

[akaokitty]

6 hours ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

I don't much like PW (I find it a bit tacky) but I just watched the nationals on your recommendation and I'm growing to like it. The local crowd seems to really give him energy. Before he fell during Seimei and lost his confidence, the intensity was amazing. Perhaps he felt he didn't have to tone down the "Japaneseness" for an international audience. It's probably my favourite performance of it up until that unfortunate moment.

He does always perform well in Japan I know, during his seimei nationals performance, I was a little worried for him because the jumps on his second half were all wobbly somehow. I thought for a moment that maybe he'd hurt himself. Come to think of it, when did the Lisfranc problem start anyway?

[meoima]

21 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I agree the 4S3T in the SP ended up being a mental block and so I understand avoiding it. But I can't help but think that it must feel like a defeat to Yuzu, one of those walls he just couldn't climb through. I am happy, though, that it seemed to become less of a problem in his FS by the end of the season, so he doesn't lose confidence in the combo entirely. In the combo and in 4S itself. 

 

I hope he returns to it in a future SP post-Olympics, where the pressure might be lessened. 

Yuna ditched the 3Lo and no one called her a loser. If something does not work, let it go. That is the true meaning of growing up. What made her lost the 2nd gold was because she did not compete the whole season before Sochi, and did not use the whole 4 years to improve the 3lo. Because ladies did not have many jump options in the first place.

 

Men have many options. No 4S3T, then 4T3T in the second half, no big deal. Or 4lo3T or 4lz3T if he can. But it does not matter. The highest BV does not matter if you can not skate it cleanly and beautifully. Zhenia does solo 3lo in the SP, no 3lz , and still breaks WR left and right. This is what Yuzuru has to learn from her. The point is not the highest BV, the point is maximum the BV you have with great quality and consistency. Men are never consistent. But I am sure with a program he has good vibe with, he can skate to it with better consistency than Let's go crazy.

 

Yuzuru messed the 3F and 4S at Sochi, and he indeed has used the 3 years after Sochi to fix them. His 3F is OK with a correct edge now. Yuzuru still lands the solo 4S up and right and it is fine. The issue is not the 4S and 3F anymore. So if you compare Yuzuru to Yuna, he is in a better position than her. By improving 3F and 4S, Yuzuru still has many jump options while Yuna did not have any jump option without the 3Lo.

 

The biggest issue now is Yuzuru needs a reliable combo in the SP. Last season he tried out that 4S3T and it did not work well. It is not wrong to try out something different that WORKS. Now if his 4T3T is back and healthy, why not make use of it in the second half.

 

He will be fine. At least he does not cheat his jump like someone... so what it's just 4T3T? It's fully rotated and clean. They will not be able to crack him down. Someone wants to bring 4F3T in the second half but they MIGHT be cracked down by the tech panel because they cheat their jumps. So good luck with that. 

[Floria]

 

hace 5 minutos , akaokitty said:

He does always perform well in Japan I know, during his seimei nationals performance, I was a little worried for him because the jumps on his second half were all wobbly somehow. I thought for a moment that maybe he'd hurt himself. Come to think of it, when did the Lisfranc problem start anyway?

iirc it started after SC2015

[xeyra]

12 minutes ago, meoima said:

Yuna ditched the 3Lo and no one called her a loser. If something does not work, let it go. That is the true meaning of growing up. What made her lost the 2nd gold was because she did not compete the whole season before Sochi, and did not use the whole 4 years to improve the 3lo. Because ladies did not have many jump options in the first place.

 

Well, I guess the good point is that he's adulting more now instead of being extremely stubborn.  So yeah, as long as he's good with that decision for himself and 4T3T in the second half is his 'goddammit, I'll get this done one way or another' attack decision for his SP in replacement of that darned 4S combo, then I'm perfectly okay with it. It's not like 4T and 4S BVs are that different.

 

Edit: Plus might be the safety of a trusted combo makes him consider 4Lz more. 

[KatjaThera]

10 minutes ago, akaokitty said:

He does always perform well in Japan I know, during his seimei nationals performance, I was a little worried for him because the jumps on his second half were all wobbly somehow. I thought for a moment that maybe he'd hurt himself. Come to think of it, when did the Lisfranc problem start anyway?

Before 2015-2016 season Actually, now that I think about it, he said before Grand Prix Season, I think and then gradually got worse through the season is what I know.

 

6 minutes ago, meoima said:

Yuna ditched the 3Lo and no one called her a loser. If something does not work, let it go. That is the true meaning of growing up. What made her lost the 2nd gold was because she did not compete the whole season before Sochi, and did not use the whole 4 years to improve the 3lo. Because ladies did not have many jump options in the first place.

I don't think anyone would call him a loser. The problem is what he himself thinks. I doubt he's just shrugged it off as "oh, well, didn't work, let's move on." But it is probably a good lesson to learn. (But I do think he won't give up until he can do it properly, once the important stuff - Olympics - is out of the way... Or maybe I'm just projecting)

[meoima]

1 minute ago, KatjaThera said:

Before 2015-2016 season and gradually got worse through the season is what I know.

 

I don't think anyone would call him a loser. The problem is what he himself thinks. I doubt he's just shrugged it off as "oh, well, didn't work, let's move on." But it is probably a good lesson to learn. (But I do think he won't give up until he can do it properly, once the important stuff - Olympics - is out of the way... Or maybe I'm just projecting)

well he still lands the 4S left and right and ok with it. I see no problem. no 4S3T does not mean he did not get it. He landed 4S3T several times and he all gets huge GOE (even though not +3). There is nothing to be ashamed. 

[Étudeesque]

While I can understand the benefits of adding the 4Lz to the short I just think it seems too risky for Yuzuru and his team. Doing a clean SP is important and his 4Lz still seems to be a work in progress. You lose so many marks when not going clean, look at Chen - obviously Yuzuru still gets high PCS marks when he falls (deservedly so given his transition-content and edge-work) but given how Worlds went I can understand that he prioritizes going clean. Clean Chen will get at least 103+ and Uno 104+. Doing 4Lz 4T3T // 3A (I have a really hard time believing he would do two new jumping elements in short - so no 4Lo-combo) if the 4Lz is not ready it could harm his PCS, if he falls consistently on the jump also as we have seen it is important to be skating later in the final group.

 

Javier still won the SP at Worlds17 despite doing two "easier" quads so I don't really think they will hold Yuzuru down simply for doing a slightly easier combination - judges also knows as well as we that it is more difficult to do it in the second half. They want him to be consistent however.

 

If he goes clean and does Chopin anywhere close to how well he can skate it I think there is a good chance that he will be first after the short. Of course the problem can be if the PCS gets "equalized" (without cause - I mean perhaps the others will come out next season with more transitions and one-foot-skating, who knows?) just to keep the competition interesting or due to national bias or due to judges not understanding what difficult transitions look like but even then Yuzuru can get the edge with his high quality jumps. Skating Chopin means he will have more time getting truly comfortable with it

 

Honestly though I really wish difficult-jump bonus and consistency bonuses weren't a thing. Judges read the PCS rules instead please...

 

[Pamigena]

I can see where the argument comes from that, if he goes clean with Chopin 3.0, judges can't give him a lower score than they did before and so he'd kind of have a relatively reliable minimum score for the SP. I just wonder if that is really so. It's like with any other score discussion I've ever read (that usually boil down to "judges gonna do whatever they want anyway"). What I often take away from it is that the perception is that judges seem to think "yeah that jump was good by normal standards, but it could have been better by Yuzu-standards, and since we know that he can do it better, we won't give him the highest marks". Now I imagine that if someone really hands out scores like that.... you won't only have "I will judge his jumps based on how good I know they can be", but you also get "I will judge this entire SP based on how good I know that it was the last (two) time(s)". And that is a pretty high standard to live up to. So I'm left to wonder if going clean would even be good enough with a threepeat Chopin, or if he would have to go squeaky Yuzu-clean in order to not get some major dings for every tiny mistake.

[KatjaThera]

1 minute ago, meoima said:

well he still lands the 4S left and right and ok with it. I see no problem. no 4S3T does not mean he did not get it. He landed 4S3T several times and he all gets huge GOE (even though not +3). There is nothing to be ashamed.

I don't disagree with you. I'm sure he can do perfect 4S3T and I'm also sure he can skate a clean Let's Go Crazy. But I think he wasn't as sure and that's why he didn't manage it. It'd be great if he thought like you pointed out, too, but I'm not sure he does. But like I said, it's probably a good lesson for him to learn, to let go of something, even if for a while. He's also not stupid, so I think he understands the benefits of it. But underneath it all, there's probably still an itch he'll want to scratch at some point.

[Katt]

Whatever program he skate to, the most important thing is to land the jump. Its nonsense to keep that 4S3T if he keep making mistake. It costed him 4CC gold and almost his WC title. For me, the problem its not 4S3T or easier 4T3T, its a 4-3 combo in general. I would rather see him land 4T3T than failing on his 4S3T whether its in 1st half or 2nd half, even its a step back.   

No one say Gabby should ditch her 3T3T combo and go for harder 3Lz3T or 3F3T. Its still a 3-3 combo after all. It will be a step back if she do 3Lz2T.

 

Its too early to predict about scoring, judge's reaction and other factors next season. I think I will be back to my worry mode when the GPs event start  Right now, I just want to enjoy the ice shows (and my summer break)

[Yatagarasu]

25 minutes ago, meoima said:

But for now, his top priority is to skate clean SP to keep himself in the top flight for LP.  

 

And I think this one sentence is the crux of the matter, in terms of the confusion that I'm seeing happening (I think it's gone from a negative reaction to confused in a many cases by now, which mean people are working through it). 

He's mostly gone for being the one who if skates clean, he will be on top, kind of thinking. Not allowing the other men, no matter what they do to influence him because he is the one in control of his own destiny.
By doing the current SP as we see it now he is abandoning that. It's a major shift in thinking. Keeping himself in the top flight is way different than what he thought before. So I think it'll take time for everyone to shift their way of understanding Yuzuru now. 
I think he's right to go for the safe option of a 4T-3T if that gives him the greatest mental comfort and security, when it comes to the combinations coupled with an actual tech upgrade.

I think the impression of "too safe" is coming from the Chopin for the third time + the 4T-3T. If it were a new program with a 4T-3T, there wouldn't be that many blinks. But a repeat of Chopin raises the questions coupled with it. So with the 4Lz, that would be erased for the most part. We'll see what he decides.

 

 

14 minutes ago, meoima said:

But it does not matter. The highest BV does not matter if you can not skate it cleanly and beautifully. Zhenia does solo 3lo in the SP, no 3lz , and still breaks WR left and right. This is what Yuzuru has to learn from her. 

 

This I don't agree with because Zhenya's situation is not the same as Yuzuru's. Men's is much more advanced on tech, and there quite a few ahead of Yuzuru now. You cannot apply what they are doing to the men and expect the same. 
What you can do is couple it with his line of thinking of last season and 'the highest average' and try to keep the tech as high as possible while at the same time keeping it in the range which gives you the highest possible chance of being clean-ish. That's not easy at all and it's important there's a balance or you fall too far back in case of a single, small mistake.