shanshani

Me starting to work on jumping: I HAVE NO FEAR Me attempting an inside 3-turn: *giant scaredycat* These things are terrifying Anyway, trying to add a hop in the middle of RBO glides to imitate landing. Landing on the correct edge is harder than it looks Bunny hop is ezpz though, although my right leg could be straighter. I'm jumping them with a good bit more entry speed and height than when I first learned them last week though. I also think I badly need my blades sharpened. My coach said they were fine a couple of weeks ago, but in the interim it feels like part of my right outside edge has disappeared. My RFO is awful as of late and all my edges seem more difficult in general. Plus I've never had my skates sharpened but they must have around 100 hours of ice time by now at least. Unfortunately I have to give up my skates for a week, but I can't practice for most of the upcoming week anyway. Petty: Saw someone who I'm pretty sure was the person who was mean to me when I was a total newbie trying to learn backwards swizzles. I am now a better skater than her. Revenge

I think it would be great if ice scope could give us flight times as well. It would be a good reality check for the height numbers.

Flight time (s) Maximum height in a vacuum (cm) 0.68 56.7 0.70 60.1 0.75 69.0 0.76 70.8 0.78 74.6 The stats for flight time versus maximum height in a vacuum on Earth if anyone is interested. Actual heights would probably be lower because of air resistance and there's a little messiness since this tracks the skater's center of mass rather than their blade location. Still, should be roughly right.

Per standard kinematics, flight time is a direct function of height, unless there's some large difference in air resistance between the two jumps, which there isn't. You can't jump way higher but remain in the air for only a bare fraction longer--that not how gravity works. So unless Nathan has somehow figure out how to manipulate the gravitational fields around him using his mind, those 4Lz numbers are highly suspect. Edit: Based on my calculations, a jump with a flight time of 0.7 seconds has a maximum height of 60 centimeters in the absence of air resistance. The equation for maximum height (in meters) of a projectile in a vacuum as a function of flight time (in seconds) is 1/8*9.81*(flight time)^2. This is high school level physics stuff (I should know, I am occasionally called upon to teach high-school level physics), kind of embarrassing for Perform Live to be honest. The only complication here (besides the largely negligible are resistance) is that foot movement could through off the relationship a bit if you pull your foot towards your torso before landing in order to spend a little more time in the air, but that would result in a lower height for the same flight time. So 60 cm should still be the maximum.

Catching up on this thread. Here's what I proposed on GS: What makes most sense is if a certain number of possible GOE points are available for height and distance, and you get a % of them depending on how far/high you jumped, all completely graded by computer. The standards could be set using historical data. For the sake of demonstration, it could work like this. Let’s say we allot 1 GOE point available to be earned for height and distance, maybe split 0.5 for height and 0.5 for distance. (Someone made the comment that this should probably in actuality be 10% of BV, which I agree with. Going to use 1 just to make the math easier though.) Suppose we take a bunch of 3A data and we find that the biggest height is 0.7m and the biggest distance is 3.62m (which indeed was the case in the World’s SP). Let’s also say that, once we take into account lower tiers of competition, we find that the average 3A height is 0.56m and the average length is 2.62m. Let’s stipulate that your 3A has to at least be slightly above average to start earning height/distance GOE points (but of course we can argue about this—maybe the standard should be higher, maybe lower). From this, we could construct a scale where your height/distance GOE is proportional to how far your 3A is above the average, and the standard for full marks is set by the maximum height/distance among the historical data. So, applying this to the Worlds men’s SP 3As, assuming those measurements are accurate, it would look like this: Yuzuru Hanyu would get maximum marks for his 3A on both height and distance, as their height and distance matches the maximum height and distance in the historical data (obviously this is cheating a bit since I’m using his 3A in the historical data but this makes the math easier to demonstrate and the numbers somewhat grounded in reality, so deal with it haha). Therefore, he gets the full 1 point for height and distance. Shoma Uno would get 0 points for height on his 3A, since his height of 0.51 is below the average height of 0.56. However, he would also receive (3.44-2.62)/(3.62-2.62)=82% of full marks for distance, as his distance of 3.44 is 82% of the way between the average (2.62) and the maximum (3.62) in the historical data. Therefore, he would earn 82%*0.5=0.41 GOE for distance. Mikhail Kolyada, on the other hand, would receive (0.65-0.56)/(0.7-0.56)=64% of full marks on height, as his height is 64% of the way between the average and the maximum, so 0.32 points. But he would receive nothing for distance, as the distance on his 3A (2.5m) is below average. (I personally kind of disagree with this and would argue for weighing height more, but we can argue over the details, this is just demonstration.) Nathan Chen would receive (0.58-0.56)/(0.7-0.56)=14% of the full marks on height, for 0.07 GOE, and (2.66-2.62)/(3.62-2.62)=4% of the full marks on distance, for 0.02 GOE. Therefore, he would earn 0.09 GOE in total for jumping slightly, but only slightly, higher and longer than average. (Of course, let me note that I completely made up the average numbers—the actual average for clean 3As in the Worlds SP was 0.59m height and 2.87m distance, but I put lower numbers on the theory that the men at Worlds would have bigger 3As than all of the men who can jump a 3A do on average). Keegan Messing, on the other hand, would receive (0.64-0.56)/(0.7-0.56)=57% of full marks for height, giving him 0.29, and (3.33-2.62)/(3.62-2.62)=71% of full marks for distance, giving him 0.36, for a total of 0.65 GOE for a strongly above average but still somewhat short of the maximum jump in terms of size. Anyway, you get the idea. Again, the details can be tweaked, but I find the general idea to be much more sensical than a binary choice of whether the jump had “very good” height and distance. Of course, all the math can be done by computer, so all this is fully automated. It also has interesting strategic consequences—in addition to doing a better job of incentivizing jumping big, which I think the current judging is very bad at, it also has the interesting side effect that if you can figure out how to jump much bigger than your opponents, you can suppress their GOE scores (presuming the historical data is continually updated, which I think it should be). For instance, Yuzuru’s 3A was a whole 5 centimeters higher than the next highest 3A, from Mikhail Kolyada. Consequently (under this example scoring regime), no other competitor was able to score more than 64% of the points available for height! I think that would add an extra dimension to the competition and really encourage bigger jumps. Admittedly, it would be difficult to set standards for jumps that are rarely jumped, like 4Lo and 4F. In those cases, perhaps standards could be set using a data set pooled from all of the quads. Unfortunately, I think that might short change 4Lo jumpers a bit, since I don’t think loops tend to get as high and far as other jumps because of the mechanics of the jump, but it would be a fair compromise until a bigger data set is built, and certainly better than whatever passes for height/distance judging now.

Oh okay. Still, what exactly can he do better to make it +5? Literally fly?

what is the difference between these jumps and why is one +5 and the other +4?

*is dealing with a breakout right now* Whaaaaat suddenly he’s 200% more relatable.

Some guy complimented my skating today, but then he started asking what time I skate and whether I would give him lessons and I got a bit weirded out. I haven't even been doing this for half a year and the rink has clearly designated instructors? Felt like he was trying to creep on me All the backward outside edge drilling is finally starting to pay off. They're getting better! I will be able to do backwards outside edge glides with a straight free leg with perfect consistency out of crossovers without thinking by the end of the week. I WILL I learned bunny hops this session. They are surprisingly non-scary, although I'm currently hopping only about half a centimeter off the ice (Yuzu jumps 140x higher than me ). My coach is having me do them out of lunges (to emphasize the bent knees) and owwwww my thighs. They buuuuurn. Looks like I need to start doing off ice exercise so my muscles don't wear out Sometimes it's just practice--it just takes a couple of weeks for the motion to become smooth. Getting real skates helps too--my swizzles became 200% better once I switched to my own skates because they actually have sharpened edges. Rental skates are truly horrible on many levels. I've never practiced falling and my coach has never brought it up, so I'm not sure it's something that you have to do. I haven't had any disaster falls yet so...*fingers crossed* I think falling might be kind of hard to practice because different falls are caused by different things, and you have to adjust your body differently depending on what happened.

Woah, I have to go stop by TST now I need to see GIANT Yuzu (please put them up in Causeway Bay so I can see these ads on the way to work each day )

I don't actually think he gave up that many points with the jump layout--the only obvious thing to me is to do 4T3T and 3F3A instead of 4T3A and 3F3T in order to reduce the sequence deduction and maximize available GOE, though I don't know if it would be harder to jump 3A out of 3F than 4T. It's more that the difficulty versus point value ratio is off--I don't think his layout was any less difficult than Nathan's since Nate had the same number of quads but one less 3A, yet the dumb CoP undervalues 4Lo and 3A sequences so Yuzu's BV was below Nate's. (That's not even counting transitions.)

Eh, I mean Raf is clearly a good coach in many respects, but there have been issues with him making insensitive comments about skaters' weights in the past, and now there are questions about the culture of his rink because of his handling of the Eunsoo Lim/Mariah Bell issue. So it's not just him being a grump, there's things he could probably stand to improve on, to say the least. I wonder what kind of coach Yuzu would be. Probably the strict and difficult to please kind, but in a non-grumpy way

I did figure out cross rolls! Turns out they weren’t so hard after all, just had to get over the initial fear/work on it a bit on my own. They aren’t good—the curves are very shallow, my upper body control is bad and I need to shift my weight more, but I can do many steps in a row so I’ll count that as a success for now. They’re actually less scary than forward crossovers, since I don’t wind up going a bajillion miles an hour by accident. Speaking of fear, my coach is now having me do backwards mini-powerpulls. My backwards 1 foot glides are only now starting to get kind of decent and you want me to change edges back and forth? I still have to concentrate to get on a backward outside edge! Step/turn progress: Get: LFO 3 turn RFO 3 turn (although I was having a bit of trouble with this today randomly. Bleh) RBI-LFO choctaw (lol this is my best step) RFI-LBI mohawk RBI-LFI mohawk (only figured this one out after the choctaw and have barely practiced it, but it’s already better than my forward mohawks. go figure) Work in progress: LFI-RBI mohawk (I hate these, I practice them so much and they still suck) LBI-RFO choctaw (don’t practice this a lot but it went okay the last few times I tried, not great) LBI-RFI mohawk moving two foot turn, all directions (how am I still so awful at these 😂 I think it’s a psychological block at this point, for some reason I find them terrifying, therefore I don’t practice them, therefore I don’t get better) Nope: Everything else. Maybe I’ll try forward inside 3 turns soon. Turns out I don’t like turning clockwise.

*sigh* I guess that means Yuzu will have to beg my forgiveness by skating shirtless then. You could have avoided this, Yuzu!

I would forgive Yuzu for doing a Sex Bomb tribute if he ditched the muscle suit and showed off his actual muscles instead. Otherwise,

Oakville again? Is it the same venue? Hopefully they'll take down the hockey glass this time.

1 megastar is better than 0. It's also not a zero sum game. It's not like there's a limited pool of fans and Yuzu's hogging all of them. Yuzu brings people into skating results in people also become fans of other skaters and throw plushies for them too. The number of people who literally only care about Yuzu and couldn't give a fig about other skaters is very small. Most of us have other skaters we like. Just as an example, Kevin Aymoz started getting some buzz around ACI 2018. Yuzu being at that competition didn't suck attention away from him, if anything it gave him more exposure. I don't think many people knew who he was last season, but now his name is commonly brought up in discussions of artistry. Maybe JSF could promote their skaters more and get them fairer PCS scores. At least Rika seems to be getting some backing.

I actually thought Nathan was more likely to win, and I have forum posts somewhere or other to prove it *pokes fingers together sheepishly* At the end of the day, being out for the better part of two seasons and skating while injured is a huge disadvantage no matter how good you are. It’s obvious now that Yuzu was quite the underdog going into Worlds, and he will probably be the underdog going into next season because he has to lose more training time to ankle recovery, unless Nathan himself (god forbid—how depressing would it be if all the top men had injury problems) acquires a similar level of debilitating injury. (As an aside, that’s why Yuzu should keep his current programs, strategically speaking—it’s one less thing to worry about and one less thing to learn. He can always simplify the transitions if they’re introducing a level of unnecessary risk, not that it’s in his character to do so.) None of that is a slight to his GOAT status, only an acknowledgment of the major setbacks he’s experienced, and that he is, after all, human. He pulled off a miracle at Olys, but it’s a bit much to expect him to pull off miracles all of the time. Though his Worlds FS was still pretty miraculous and awe-inspiring, even if he didn’t win. I can’t even force myself to go to bed at the correct time, yet somehow he willed himself into skating almost clean. Anyway, I’m rambling. My main points are: 1. Yuzu is currently the underdog vis a vis Nathan because of the ankle injury 2. Nothing about the Worlds result makes Yuzu less impressive, in fact quite the opposite. 3. I hope he doesn’t think we expect him to win all the time, because that would be an absurd expectation on our part 4. Please get better Yuzu 5. Please keep competing because you want to compete, not because you feel like you are obligated to by fans (I do think Yuzu genuinely wants to keep competing and he really is fired up by this rivalry with Nathan, given his personality...buuuut he also seems to feel a little too much of an obligation to fans sometimes. Put yourself first, please.) Still rambling. Should sleep now.

Other people addressed these questions well, but as a relatively new skater I’ll share my experiences too. I actually didn’t have any group classes available to me when I signed up (also starting from scratch), so I’ve been doing private coaching from the beginning. I think my coach and I click pretty well and I’ve been making good progress, so that’s also an option if for whatever reason group classes don’t work out for you. You’ll probably learn faster, but at the cost of more money. Mine cost US$35ish for 30 minutes once a week? But prices will vary a lot depending on location. I would rent skates for a couple of sessions just to make sure you like it. Some people get on the ice and immediately hate it because it’s quite scary when you start out. You feel like you can barely move without falling. But if you can get over that, it’s really fun! Once you’ve decided that you like it, I would just go and buy skates immediately (rentals do really suck) as long as you have the money available. It makes everything a lot easier, your feet will hurt less as long as you are fitted well, and you won’t have to adjust to new skates every time. I went straight for a boot in the $300+ range on the theory that I would save money in the long term by buying something longer lasting—I think it’s worked out well so far (the main risk is if your fitter doesn’t know what they’re doing and you get a boot that doesn’t fit you). It depends on your rate of progress though—if you’re happy to take it slow, you might get away with something cheaper. I think I have regular expenses of about $200 US a month between coaching and ice time, but that will vary a lot based on where you’re located. That’s not including equipment related expenses, which is are a bit irregular. So it’s expensive, but it’s not out-of-this-world expensive, at least for me (YMMV). Given that skating is the only thing that gets my butt out of my chair/bed and gets me exercising, I think it’s worth it!

On the other hand, judging by the number of 4/3F! calls lately, apparently everyone has trouble with their flip edges I think the flip is traditionally jumped off a shallow edge though (it certainly is in those weird ISU mannequin jump demo videos), unlike the lutz.

Maybe he thinks he can get 4F up to competition-ready consistency before he can get 4A up to it? Even if it winds up being 4F!, that’s only a minor GOE deduction.

Wow what, that’s new. I mean, his 4Lz is beautiful, so I’m happy we might get to see it again. But wow he is serious about matching Nate’s quad arsenal. *continues to pray for ankle* It’s too bad we can’t turn the collective love of fans into healing magic When was this interview—was this right after Worlds or did he have time to reflect?

Yuzu's EXs are sooo good. There are at least 3 that are legendary-tier imo. 2016 Boston Worlds, 2018 Olympics, and 2019 Saitama

Oh, sure. Sorry if I'm misreading, I'm procrastinating at work so I'm not being the most careful reader here

I don't think Nate has closed the GOE gap. As you mention, Yuzu's executions weren't very good in comparison to his usual standard, but specifically they weren't very good in the area that judges seem to actually care most about, which is landings. Judges don't care about bullet ticking, that much is clear, so I agree they won't give Yuzu much credit for the bullets he ticks that Nathan doesn't, but Yuzu's landings are usually nicer than Nathans, so I think we can still expect him to get better GOEs if he can land him jumps better than he did at Saitama. Second, there still is a PCS gap, since Yuzu undoubtedly got PCS marks deducted for being tighter than usual/popping or underrotating, yet still scored about the same as Nathan, who was cleaner. Obviously, it isn't much of a gap, but I don't think it has disappeared. I don't think you can conclude from the results of this one competition that the PCS/GOE gap has closed--Nathan's landings were nicer than Yuzu's, Yuzu made mistakes, and the lack of GOE/PCS gap seems to me largely a function of that rather than anything else.