2018-19 Thoughts on skating, programs, and skaters!

[Old Cat Lady]

On 3/31/2019 at 3:21 AM, hoodie axel said:

Chen will overtake him now. A choreographic change will show the judges that he is "still fighting" or whatever.

 

I think that Chen overtaking Uno's PCS had more to do with Uno being so inconsistent, or rather, consistently bombing.  If Uno can fix his jumps and land them consistently, every other mark will go up as well.  Besides - have you looked at Uno's choreographer history?  When it's not Mihoko, he seems to favor David Wilson    

 

On 3/31/2019 at 3:21 AM, hoodie axel said:

 

Lambiel's own jumps weren't ever that great. They are working with Briand, though.

 

But I question how much a summer camp can do.  Obviously I've never landed a quad, but it seems like it would be an ongoing process. 

[hoodie axel]

2 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I think that Chen overtaking Uno's PCS had more to do with Uno being so inconsistent, or rather, consistently bombing.  

 

Besides - have you looked at Uno's choreographer history?  When it's not Mihoko, he seems to favor David Wilson

This isn't against what I've said though lol. Plus, Chen has two world titles now (guy is unbelievably lucky with the seasons the skaters better than him got dealt).

 

This still isn't against the judges viewing him as a "fighter". They are fish-brained people. Wilson also has Canadian rep. Whatever we might feel about that program is irrelevant for the judges. Plus, it could be Bourne, too, quite easily.

 

4 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

But I question how much a summer camp can do.  Obviously I've never landed a quad, but it seems like it would be an ongoing process. 

They are collaborating well enough. I doubt that camp will ever improve without an in-house jump coach anyway, but summer-camps to build up jumps aren't unheard of.

[Paskud]

3 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I think that Chen overtaking Uno's PCS had more to do with Uno being so inconsistent, or rather, consistently bombing.

But Nate isn't consistent. He struggled during whole GP. He had two very good competitions (nats and worlds), but even then he had some uncalled URs.

[Old Cat Lady]

22 hours ago, Paskud said:

In men (outside of Zazura) definitely Nobu's YMCA program. By a mile. Pinacle of figure skating. Japan Open the best competition in season.

 

I can't believe I forgot about Nobu!  After Yuzu, I think his is the program I watched most this season.  It's sort of a guilty pleasure - I know it's cheesy but it's so fun and the fact that he doesn't take himself seriously makes it joyful rather than schmaltzy.

 

1 hour ago, Paskud said:

But Nate isn't consistent. He struggled during whole GP. He had two very good competitions (nats and worlds), but even then he had some uncalled URs.

 

But outside of Japan Open, which is in the beginning of the season and a fluff competition that's easy to forget, Chen hasn't had any major bombs while Uno's bombed at least one program every competition and in his only clean program of the year which was also at the beginning of the year and easy to forget, he still popped the back end of his combo into a double.  Chen's GPF performance wasn't great but it was overshadowed by Uno bombing more.   And there hasn't been a big outcry over Chen's rotations so he also doesn't have the target on him the way Uno does.  Uno was also visibly tight throughout worlds. 

 

At this point, Uno needs to shake off the reputation, which he can only do through consistent performances where he doesn't get < calls.  That's why he's better off focusing on cleaning up his jumps. Once he can improve his technique and go clean with them, then he can work on growing artistically.

 

 

4 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

This isn't against what I've said though lol. Plus, Chen has two world titles now (guy is unbelievably lucky with the seasons the skaters better than him got dealt).

 

This still isn't against the judges viewing him as a "fighter". They are fish-brained people. Wilson also has Canadian rep. Whatever we might feel about that program is irrelevant for the judges. Plus, it could be Bourne, too, quite easily.

 

Fine.  You win.  But I plead of you to warn me if Uno does go with Wilson 

 

Funny thing is that earlier in the year I saw an exhibition that Uno did and immediately went on the Planet to complain about how it ruined Uno's skating for me because I couldn't unsee all the artistic shortcomings that all his antis have complained about.  Couldn't stand to watch Uno for like a month after that.  I never looked at who choreographed it until this thread and, sure enough, there's David Wilson.  I think Wilson generally only works for naturally schmaltzy styles.  I'm guessing it only works for Yuzu because Yuzu is so headstrong and puts a lot of himself into the choreography.  Otherwise, it seems like Wilson tries to force skaters into a box rather than creating innovative programs that highlight the skater's strengths.

 

But Lambiel has co-choreographed with Mihoko for some of his best programs and I did like the exhibition with Shae so there is hope.

[Old Cat Lady]

I was being an obsessive compulsive weirdo and counting crossovers from worlds and I actually see the argument for giving Uno lower skating skills scores.  He had by far the most crossovers of the top men.  It's difficult because he might have the best knees and glide of all the skaters, but how can you give credit for skating skills when you're doing so little to actually display them? 

 

In this sense, I can see the argument for transitions and skating skills to be closely tied - but what do you do about skaters that have a huge gap between ability and content?

 

Nate got 9.5, Kolyada 9, and Jin got 8.5.  They all had crossovers in the low to mid 20's.  Uno had around 35 and scored around 9.04.  

 

Judging by video, I'd probably put them 1. Kolyada... big gap...  2. Uno 3. Nate 4. Jin.  Of course scores were also affected by Uno making the most major mistakes.  For those who've seen them all live, do you think Nate and Jin are a full point apart?  To me, they look pretty close - Nate currently has more polish but I would think that goes more toward the performance score.  

 

Upon closer inspection, Nate's transitions aren't quite as bad as I thought they were - I can see the argument for ranking him second of the top men, though I'd score him at LEAST a full point below Hanyu.  It's just that the preps for the jumps are so long and so stark that it completely disrupts the program and it becomes what's the most noticeable thing about the program.  However, this should be reflected in GOE's, choreography, performance, and interpretation, and as far as I can tell, he isn't getting penalized on ANY of those scores.

 

And this is another question of quantity vs. quality.  I'd still rank Kolyada higher because his are higher quality in spite of having slightly less.  Nate doesn't finish any of his moves - it's very obvious that he's just doing the moves because that's what he's supposed to do rather than connecting them to a cohesive whole. I'd rank Uno the worst of the top men - I actually think his are the most beautiful, but once again, how do you give credit when there's so little there?

 

I do appreciate Jin's program more that I took another look at it.  It still has the second most crossovers and the movements are choppy and unfinished, but everything is improved and it does try to create a whole picture and set a mood. 

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I was being an obsessive compulsive weirdo and counting crossovers from worlds and I actually see the argument for giving Uno lower skating skills scores.  He had by far the most crossovers of the top men.  It's difficult because he might have the best knees and glide of all the skaters, but how can you give credit for skating skills when you're doing so little to actually display them?  

This argument has never made sense to me. Judge the quality of crossovers here -- good power? Gain in speed? Glide?. Deduct elsewhere for not showing enough transitions/choreography/whatever.

 

I'm weirded out by this obsession with crossovers, lol. Who cares this much? They're a part of skating. It doesn't automatically make an inferior program, otherwise post-2002 Michelle Kwan would be horrible by these "standards", when she had some of her best performances in that period. Her SS were excellent because of the stability of glide and deep edge she constantly held through the program, even with her crossovers.

 

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

For those who've seen them all live, do you think Nate and Jin are a full point apart?  To me, they look pretty close - Nate currently has more polish but I would think that goes more toward the performance score.   

Chen's performance component isn't better than Jin's (when each at their best). His projection, energy, and use of facial expression are all lacking, and Jin while not having great body awareness still engages more as a result. Here it might have been. In terms of SS, I'd place them roughly the same, although Chen barely progressed this season and we never got to see Jin do a good job this season -- he's actually improved a lot in terms of power from crossovers, and somewhat in glide and edge, which might push him up. In terms of scores, I'd place the LP SS score from Jin lower than Chen's, because he was quite laboured and slow at several points.

 

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Upon closer inspection, Nate's transitions aren't quite as bad as I thought they were - I can see the argument for ranking him second of the top men, though I'd score him at LEAST a full point below Hanyu. 

He barely gets any flow out of his jump landings, and the transitioning between elements is never smooth as a result.

 

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I'd still rank Kolyada higher because his are higher quality in spite of having slightly less. 

How are Kolyada's slightly less than Chen's? Are you sure you're counting the transitions into spins, out of jumps, in between all elements? He already gets better flow, so that aids this mark.

 

I might have Jin or Uno last in this component, because they just had poor showings with their elements. Otherwise, note Jin's transitions into and out of both his 3A passes + the illusion into sit spin straight out of the 3F, and Uno's spread eagle 3Lo.

 

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I do appreciate Jin's program more that I took another look at it.  It still has the second most crossovers and the movements are choppy and unfinished, but everything is improved and it does try to create a whole picture and set a mood.  

Fair enough, but I thought his body awareness was alright enough here. His mistakes affected this a lot. His main problem was complete lack of energy, which is usually his strength.

 

[Old Cat Lady]

2 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

This argument has never made sense to me. Judge the quality of crossovers here -- good power? Gain in speed? Glide?. Deduct elsewhere for not showing enough transitions/choreography/whatever.

I'm going by this chart

https://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf

The phrase "demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary..." and most of the sub bullets all say "use".  I'm interpreting that to mean that content of steps and turns is considered in this score.   I would say Shoma excels at "Flow and guide" and "Balance, rhythmic knee action"  and "varied use of power, speed and acceleration" but  they're only 3 of the 6 considerations. 

 

 

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I'm weirded out by this obsession with crossovers, lol. Who cares this much? They're a part of skating. It doesn't automatically make an inferior program, 

 

It's not so much an obsession with counting crossovers as it is looking for objective measurements as I feel that opinions should be supported with facts whenever possible.  PCS wise, I think the only truly objective measurement is to simply list the content of the program (I do recognize that it is one of many factors when evaluating PCS).  What I was actually doing was attempting to list every element in the program, but it became tedious to try to identify every step and turn so I just short handed it to crossovers vs. other steps then counted at the end. Yes, I do realize that's still weird.

 

I agree that greater crossovers don't necessarily mean an inferior program.  However,  IJS is a system of breaking down and quantifying individual pieces.  Since PCS is as much technical as artistic, the difficulty of the choreography is one of the many things to consider. (and I actually think Shoma has one of the most beautiful programs of all the singles skaters)

 

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He barely gets any flow out of his jump landings, and the transitioning between elements is never smooth as a result.

 

How are Kolyada's slightly less than Chen's? Are you sure you're counting the transitions into spins, out of jumps, in between all elements? He already gets better flow, so that aids this mark.

 

By "less" I simply meant that Chen has a higher quantity of non-element movements than Kolyada.  But I'd give Kolyada a higher score because he does a better job of actually linking the movements.

 

[hoodie axel]

41 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I'm going by this chart

https://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf

The phrase "demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary..." and most of the sub bullets all say "use".  I'm interpreting that to mean that content of steps and turns is considered in this score.   I would say Shoma excels at "Flow and guide" and "Balance, rhythmic knee action"  and "varied use of power, speed and acceleration" but  they're only 3 of the 6 considerations.

 

Let's cite it in full:

 

Quote

Defined by overall cleanness and sureness, edge control, and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of skating vocabulary (edges, steps, and turns, etc.), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

 

This clearly speaks about technique. Nowhere does it say "quantity of [all these things]". Equating quality with quantity doesn't make sense. Does Uno not demonstrate a command over edges, steps, and turns when he does his skid stop, spread eagle, besti squat, his leveled step sequence, the standard turns and steps he does into and out of his spins and jumps? It also seems you're docking him for not being able to demonstrate more steps and turns in favour of more crossovers, what about the "effortless use of power to accelerate" when he does them? Does he gain something when he loses something else? What's a "10"? Is the 10 deserved only when someone checks all criteria? What if someone comes up with even more steps and turns? Did Patrick Chan (at his best) deserve a lower SS score than Hanyu (at his best) for doing relatively fewer steps and turns in his program, even though his edges have more power and control?

 

Of course, if Uno were doing nothing but crossovers through his programs, it would be weird to give him a very high SS mark, but by the very structure of programs that IJS needs, that will never be true. He demonstrates blade control in his spins, and his edges and multidirectional ability are evident in his crossovers and the steps and turns he is required to do in his footwork sequences. However, if someone who skated exactly like Uno were to perform more difficult skill, he should get more SS marks, nor are Uno's skills perfect (could have better glide, could have better edge, better control). The main issue I would have if someone were doing fewer extraneous turns and steps (or transitions) is if they still didn't skate with great speed, edge, or control on the rest of the things, or carried low speed going into elements despite not having too many steps or turns going into them. THAT'S poor demonstration of technique.

 

41 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

PCS wise, I think the only truly objective measurement is to simply list the content of the program

You can never put in things like "deep edge", "control", or even "speed" (for now) into this truly objective measurement.

 

41 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Since PCS is as much technical as artistic, the difficulty of the choreography is one of the many things to consider.

Right here you say difficulty of choreography. There exist two marks for that already, TR and CO.

 

41 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

By "less" I simply meant that Chen has a higher quantity of non-element movements than Kolyada. 

Yes, I understood that. Hence my question if you were counting the rest of the things.

[Old Cat Lady]

58 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

You can never put in things like "deep edge", "control", or even "speed" (for now) into this truly objective measurement.

 

Which is why I say "one" of the things to consider.  And honestly, not even the most important one.  But it is the most concrete one.  I would never use quantity of content in itself to judge a program but I do believe that it is a relevant metric.

 

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Right here you say difficulty of choreography. There exist two marks for that already, TR and CO.

 

sorry, that comment was a little unclear.  When I made that comment it was simply a comment on why I was counting the crossovers not a comment about the Skating Skills score

 

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Yes, I understood that. Hence my question if you were counting the rest of the things.

 

Perhaps the disconnect is in what we're counting as transitions?  I could have sworn that I read somewhere that arm movements are counted as transitions.  Certainly, Kolyada has much more meaningful transitions (another reason why I gave him higher score) but Nate is doing stuff after the elements. 

 

It's just that a note on Kolyada goes like this: Pose. lunge. Twizzle. Steps 

 

while Nate's are "turn, co, 4.5 sec prep into 4t - good/small. Simple turns"...  choreo sequence - mostly upper body movements with a few simple turns and steps

[hoodie axel]

18 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

.  I would never use quantity of content in itself to judge a program but I do believe that it is a relevant metric.

Ok, now don't get me wrong, I acknowledge you're judging quality too. My problem with quantifying everything is, well, when can I say I have demonstrated multidirectional ability? What percentage of the program is to be devoted to multidirectional turns? I'm already doing them in my required leveled footwork. If I do those with supreme quality, is it enough or not? If it doesn't go with the music, then what?

 

18 minutes ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that arm movements are counted as transitions.

I'm not sure I agree. I would classify this as choreography. I would maybe classify them as simple transitions at most, although would also judge these by considering what kind of edge, speed and flow was maintained, and if the body was bent into a difficult position even if not exactly doing a step or turn during it, or some full body movement was demonstrated, because that would still demonstrate skill as opposed to just moving an arm.

[Old Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, hoodie axel said:

Ok, now don't get me wrong, I acknowledge you're judging quality too. My problem with quantifying everything is, well, when can I say I have demonstrated multidirectional ability? What percentage of the program is to be devoted to multidirectional turns? I'm already doing them in my required leveled footwork. If I do those with supreme quality, is it enough or not? If it doesn't go with the music, then what?

 

I thought about the footwork sequence as well but then I thought, all the factors for the footwork are already credited in the GOE since there are creative bullets like "element matches music" and "originality".  It's a similar concept to your PCS going up because you can land quads.  You're giving double credit for the same element. 

I think PCS is more big picture.  

 

To be honest, I'm still thinking about this.  In the past, I thought like you, but then I re-read the description and it made me reconsider.  There's also a GOE mentality to this - it's easier to make things look good when you're doing easier elements.  Would the skating look more labored if he had to do more?  I think the score is primarily technique, but there is a content factor.  For example, Zhou could be doing the most jam packed program in history and I still wouldn't score him higher than Shoma.  It's similar to falling on a quad - if you do the element badly you should still get fewer points than a perfectly executed triple.  But a mediocre quad is still going to score higher because it's so much more difficult.

 

Part of the disconnect is also how we're interpreting the other components.  You think the difficulty of the in betweens are scored in the other components whereas I think even very simple movements are considered in their scores.  I also think composition is more about how well all the movements are arranged rather than the difficulty.

 

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I'm not sure I agree. I would classify this as choreography. I would maybe classify them as simple transitions at most, although would also judge these by considering what kind of edge, speed and flow was maintained, and if the body was bent into a difficult position even if not exactly doing a step or turn during it, or some full body movement was demonstrated, because that would still demonstrate skill as opposed to just moving an arm.

 

I don't agree either but I counted it because I thought it was supposed to count?  I try my best to judge the skating as I think the rules state it's supposed to be judged rather than how I think it should be judged.  I interpret the transition description to mean that you should give some credit for linking movements of any kind simply existing and then you would adjust the score up and down based on difficulty and variety.

 

 

 

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

I thought about the footwork sequence as well but then I thought, all the factors for the footwork are already credited in the GOE since there are creative bullets like "element matches music" and "originality".  It's a similar concept to your PCS going up because you can land quads.  You're giving double credit for the same element. 

By that logic, then, you shouldn't be giving credit to anything that's a technical element, at all, in PCS. Nothing for choreography, performance, interpretation with spins and footwork, transitions for steps going in and out of jumps, because those are already covered in GOE

 

These things are there SPECIFICALLY to demonstrate your skill. You train skating skills specifically to do steps and turns. That's the weird Cinquata-like backward-thinking that got us into the place we are with skating currently.

1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Would the skating look more labored if he had to do more? 

How would you ever be able to predict this?

[Old Cat Lady]

16 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

How would you ever be able to predict this?

 

We wouldn't.  That's kind of the point.  Not going to give him credit for assumptions 

[hoodie axel]

2 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

Not going to give him credit for assumptions 

Or take away credit for assumptions either.   There's simply no proof that him (or anyone else) not cramming random turns into his programs means he is incapable of doing so, which seem to be the logic behind this and the counting of crossovers (= they MUST need to do all those to maintain speed! logic I've seen elsewhere). You can judge the ability based on what does exist. And there's plenty in any high level senior program, if you know what to look for.

 

You also said this before, but I chose not to counter it:

18 hours ago, Old Cat Lady said:

There's also a GOE mentality to this - it's easier to make things look good when you're doing easier elements. 

Are you sure it's "easier" to make things look perfect -- all the basic turns and steps, keeping supreme quality of speed, edge, and control through the program -- a la Yuna Kim,  as opposed to doing a bunch of turns of OK to mediocre quality -- a la Alina Zagitova?

 

Sorry, but I'm not the one making assumptions here.

[kaeryth]

Favourite non-Yuzu programs this season.

 

Ladies

SP: Yuna Shiraiwa - Nightmare, All Aboard

FS: Kaori Sakamoto -  The Piano Soundtrack

 

Men

SP: Kevin Aymoz - Horns

FS: No one stood out to be honest. Everyone's FS was so empty compared to Origin. Maybe Kevin Aymoz' In This Shirt for the IB-3A and JZ Slide

 

Pairs

SP: Peng/Jin - Ophelia

FS: Sui/Han - Rain, In Your Black Eyes

 

Ice Dance

SP: Sinitsina/Katsalapov - Verano Porteno (not a fan of this pair but have to give it to them, I think their tango was best)

FS: Gilles/Poirier - Vincent (Starry Starry Night)

 

Gala:

Men: Keiji's JoJo Ex is the only thing that could stand on par with Sakura Fairy

Ladies: I'm actually drawing a blank. I guess Kaori's I Will Follow You from the Sister Act Soundtrack because I was obsessed with that movie as a child.

Pairs: Peng/Jin - Last Emperor OST

Ice Dance: Eh... no one comes to mind...............