The 2014 Patrick Chan and Yuzu Situation

[saltycandy]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:08 AM, kaeryth said:

I try to actively avoid this topic since it's in the past but it seems to be popping in all over twitter. This is not a dig at OP by the way, some people are probably very genuinely curious while other (antis) not so much and just want drama. So here goes my opinion and what I remember... (some of the things I write here might echo what others have already written). I dunno if I'll make much sense though... Warning: wall of text.

 

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Patrick is a nice guy but is a bit self-centred. Which can be a positive or a negative - everyone of us has that tendency as well. The issue is that he doesn't have any filter when it comes to the press. He'll talk down his opponents - whether it be Yuzu or someone else. I'm actually laughing that he's finally, after all these years, watched Yuzu compete because Patrick isn't someone who looks too much at what his competitor does (when Yuzu broke the WRs at NHK'15 Chiddy said that he didn't watch it but saw the scores and thought that Yuzu has reached his peak whereas he was still building up to it). That might be his defense mechanism - some skaters like to see what their competitors do and try to minimise their accomplishments, others don't watch at all because they get rattled. The thing is that this inadvertently lead to his downfall. For 3 years, he basically dominated the men's field. In the last 2 seasons leading up to Sochi, he was able to win against clean opponents with a flawed skate so of course he feels that he has a cushion and can afford to have mistakes. Then here comes Yuzu armed with a higher technical content (2 quads) and a reliable triple axel (Chiddy's weakness) and suddenly, he can no longer afford to have mistakes.

 

I'm adding Daisuke Takahashi in this because I've seen a lot of people asking about his relationship with Yuzu as well. I think Daisuke summed it up well. Their personalities just don't match - Yuzu is a 'carnivore' while Daisuke is a 'herbivore'. Imagine being the most successful male skater to come out of your country in recent years, ushering in a new era of figure skating in Japan and being the 1st to accomplish great things - 1st Japanese man to medal at the Olympics and 1st Japanese man to win Gold at the WC. But then you get injured and can't get back to your best form and all the while you have this young guy chasing after you. Daisuke is very emotional and sensitive and can be a bit of a pessimist while Yuzu is intense and just keeps pushing forward no matter what. That's why when you read snippets of interviews with Daisuke about Yuzu there is always that mention of fear - which is a very logical reaction. (In contrast though we have Nobu, who saw Yuzu jump a quad in 2011 and his first thought was "ah, his time has come').

 

In conclusion, these are 3 types of people that have very different views and personalities but all of them are normal human behaviour. Yuzu is someone who is intense, aware of his surroundings and is always looking ahead. Daisuke was someone who looks behind him, fearful of what is coming while Patrick is someone who usually only focuses on himself.

 

None are better than the other - it's just their personalities. I'm not an athlete but if I was, I honestly would say my mindset would probably be closer to Daisuke Takahashi because I'm a bit of a sensitive, emotional, pessimist .

 

 

Before I became a Yuzu fan, I was a dedicated Dai fan (still am actually) and am familiar with his autobiographies and many of his interviews. Imo your characterisation of him is the most insightful one here and comes pretty close to my impression of him. The only thing I'm on the fence about is to call him fearful. I know he used words in that vein, but I think the English connotation is stronger or at least a little different from what he possibly meant to say in Japanese. He's not exactly overly self-confident. (And bar that first 3-year period under Morozov's tutelage almost always had been that way. That's why it wasn't specifically Yuzu's presence, which made him aware of his shortcomings. He often made himself much smaller than he actually was and even thought he wasn't really talented at all. ) He was fairly competitive when he saw a realistic chance to win, but had a tendency to get discouraged and dejected when he felt significantly inferior to his opponents or when any obstacle just seemed too high to overcome. Instead of going on the offensive and fight, he would give up or "run away" to use his own words. I think I'd call him rather insecure and tentative/evasive than fearful (or maybe we mean the same thing, but just use different words to describe it ). I absolutely agree with you, that he's very emotional and sensitive. All of these characteristics together (basically being a "herbivore" with a relatively gentle, defensive personality) can be seen as weakness and that sort of mindset certainly was a disadvantage as far as being an athlete is concerned (he always saw himself more as a performer with a mindset closer to ballet dancers or other stage artists than an athlete anyway and he wasn't driven by competitive results as much as by wanting to be the one, who got most appreciated by the audience), but also as a personal strength. He's always described as exceptionally kind, empathetic and considerate and is loved and seen as a role model by his teammates for it. It actually reminds me a lot of how Yuzu recently called Javi "almost too nice to be a competitor". 
 

 

On 3/19/2018 at 8:16 PM, LadyLou said:

Daisuke T. has also admitted recently that only now he is a commentator he is able to really appreciate the strenght of all skaters instead of being defensive and focusing on the flaws (thus imo reassuring himself that he was good enough to face his competitors).

 

 

According to IK, who translated that interview on twitter. Pretty sure it should have been "as a result I tended to focus more on my flaws" instead of "their flaws". At least IK's interpretation goes against almost everything Daisuke has been saying in the past and the statement as translated makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless Daisuke has a severe personality disorder. (Or maybe he chose rather unfortunate, ambiguous words in that interview.) As referred to above, one of his "trademark" characteristics has always been his self-deprecation. He's always been praising other skaters for what they did well/better than him. 


Here he's praising Taka K. to the heavens:
 

Spoiler

 

 

And here he briefly talks about Yuzu/his younger rivals (from Friends+ with Shizuka in early 2013):

Spoiler

Shi: “What about Yuzu getting so good so fast?” 

Dai: “He is awesome. Always on the offense.” 

Shi: It’s just like young Mao moving up the ranks fast when I was competing at the top.” 

Shi: “Takeshi had no rival. If he were competing now with all the rivals, he’d be even greater.” 

Dai: “I’m where I am because of the younger competitors. I don’t think I’d have been able to jump 2 quads in a program if I didn’t have the rivals.” 

https://fstranslations.tumblr.com/post/84208332514/daisuke-takahashi-x-shizuka-arakawa-friends

 

 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

17 時間前, theblingmonsterさんが言いました:

Wow, this was so in-depth and really puts a lot of things into perspective. You must've watched a whole lot of skating to be able to pick out the qualities in all of these skaters. So you're saying that Chen is complacent right now? Referring to his number of quads and unwillingness to marry them with artistry? Which is opposed to Hanyu who continues to try to improve himself?

 

I'm not sure if you're being sincere or snarky/sarcastic but whichever you are doing, I stand by my observations because I'm simply calling it the way I see it, based on an 18 month long observation (which includes repeated viewings of skating and interview  videos several years in the past), so I do not think I'm being ignorant or unfair as I did put in a fair word for all parties mentioned. Even though the results are clear as day, and as such, speak for themselves, I understand that this opinion is mine and mine alone, so even if it is fact to me, it doesn't have to be for everyone. So if I wasn't clear in my post, I'll make it clear right now. I am not speaking for everyone. Also, sorry if my observations aren't politically correct enough for your taste. But I do me and everyone can do themselves. Feel free to ignore me.

[cinemacoconut]

2 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I'm not sure if you're being sincere or snarky/sarcastic but whichever you are doing, I stand by my observations because I'm simply calling it the way I see it. I do not think I'm being ignorant or unfair as I did put in a fair word for all parties mentioned. Sorry if my observations aren't politically correct enough for your taste. Feel free to ignore me.

 

Is she a Hanyu fan or a Chen fan? Im confused because she sounded like shes defending Chen with sarcasm

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

36 分, cinemacoconutさんが言いました:

 

Is she a Hanyu fan or a Chen fan? Im confused because she sounded like shes defending Chen with sarcasm

 

It doesn't really matter. Maybe they appreciate Hanyu but prefer to remain neutral towards others. You can still be a fan of Hanyu and stand up for others, if you feel like you need to. Sometimes fans feel bad when other fans seem to be knocking on competitors because it makes it look like we're stepping on others to elevate Hanyu. This was not what I was doing but I do get how it feels because it doesn't feel good to me when I see others doing exactly that. Some of us out there can get pretty obnoxious because of our emotions. Which was why i was careful with my words but looks like it still rubbed some the wrong way.

 

Just...when you're honest with your thoughts, you're bound to step on some toes. Because then your opinions become strong ones. And that's not everybody's cup of tea. Heck, even Hanyu catches hell for his tendency to speak his mind, though he's very smart in that he keeps his opinion about others strictly to himself and only skirt around the edges when directly asked to address the point. ("To me, artistry begins with solid and sound technique, as without the latter, the former does not exist," anyone?)

 

But just because it wouldn't do for Hanyu to directly criticize his rivals, it doesn't mean fans should shy away from it, so long as they be fair about it. I'm a rookie when it comes to these kinds of observations but these are things that even a rookie can see them if they look properly. Now I'm sure Hanyu isnt without fault himself but I'm not expert enough on the subject to really pinpoint what they are because my observations are based on him as a standard.

 

Anywho, it is what it is. We all have differing opinions, and I've been irked by the opinion of others before. Though I prefer to take a more direct route and argue things from the way I see it, we are all different people at the end of the day so we react to things differently. It's all good.

 

That is, assuming this person really was being snarky. I still can't be too sure since there's no facial or body language to be read.

[cinemacoconut]

1 minute ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

It doesn't really matter. Maybe they appreciate Hanyu but prefer remain neutral towards others. You can still be a fan of Hanyu and stand up for others, if you feel like you need to.

 

Just...whn you're honest with your thoughts, you're bound to step on some toes. Heck, even Hanyu catches hell for his tendency to speak his mind. It is what it is. We all have different opinions, and I've been irked by the opinion of others before. Though I prefer to take a more direct route and argue things from the way I see it, we are all different people at the end of the day so we react to it differently. It's all good.

 

Oh so u r a hanyu fan? Haha no worries. Thought for a second u might be on the wrong fan site haha 

Just now, cinemacoconut said:

 

Oh so u r a hanyu fan? Haha no worries. Thought for a second u might be on the wrong fan site haha 

Oops not u I mean her. 

[theblingmonster]

37 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I'm not sure if you're being sincere or snarky/sarcastic but whichever you are doing, I stand by my observations because I'm simply calling it the way I see it, based on an 18 month long observation (which includes repeated viewings of skating and interview  videos several years in the past), so I do not think I'm being ignorant or unfair as I did put in a fair word for all parties mentioned. Even though the results are clear as day, and as such, speak for themselves, I understand that this opinion is mine and mine alone, so even if it is fact to me, it doesn't have to be for everyone. So if I wasn't clear in my post, I'll make it clear right now. I am not speaking for everyone. Also, sorry if my observations aren't politically correct enough for your taste. But I do me and everyone can do themselves. Feel free to ignore me.

Erm, sorry if I came off as being snarky or sarcastic? That wasn't my intention at all, I was just trying to summarize your points to make sure that I was understanding everything correctly.

[theblingmonster]

27 minutes ago, cinemacoconut said:

 

Oh so u r a hanyu fan? Haha no worries. Thought for a second u might be on the wrong fan site haha 

Oops not u I mean her. 

Ahaha, yeah I'm definitely a Hanyu fan. I really had no idea that the way I worded my response came off as defending Chen, I was honestly just trying to reaffirm what she was saying to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding anything. I'll be more careful with my wording next time to avoid any more misunderstandings.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

On 2018/3/20 at 午後8時51分, theblingmonsterさんが言いました:

Erm, sorry if I came off as being snarky or sarcastic? That wasn't my intention at all, I was just trying to summarize your points to make sure that I was understanding everything correctly.

 

In that case, yep. You got it.

 

I'm always a little insecure about what I share (and yet can't stop myself from  sharing...my opinionated side makes sure that I get my thoughts out if I want to not be repeating them over and over inside my head) because I know my opinions can come out strong, so I try to remain fair as best as I can by saying something only once I feel I've observed enough or feel I have enough background knowledge to share what I think. But I do make misjudgments from time to time so when it seems like I'm not being as fair as I hope, well, I'm open to being called out on it, and if I feel the observation is a fair one, I'm willing to admit my error and reflect on it, since it'd help me form better opinions next time.  But you'll still have to change my mind first.

 

I am aware that what I said seems harsh but at this point, I really do stand by them. I do like everyone, and I certainly think that with even one less of them challenging the sport and Hanyu's position, Hanyu wouldn't have been able to deliver the results he did.

 

So while ultimately it has all been good for Hanyu, I'm not sure if their current style and mentality will be able to sustain their own individual competitive careers. Because the biggest reasons behind Hanyu's success even after winning one Olys, despite all the major setbacks he's had in between (some tough enough to fully discourage a less stubborn individual), are his principles and mentality as an athlete, especially one that's a figure skater. His overwhelming talent paired with his insistence in doing complete justice to the sport itself (and not with just himself), both as a sport and as performance art, is one I have yet to see even partially reflected in anyone else in the current field. He's the only figure skater out there right now whom I feel is using his talent to serve the sport and not just the other way around.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's right and everyone else is wrong, because at the end of the day, Hanyu serving the sport *is* serving himself. It just so happen they both align, which is so rare an occurrence, I haven't seen it happen with others. This has to be a natural thing so there's no real right or wrong to be had here.

[cinemacoconut]

30 minutes ago, theblingmonster said:

Ahaha, yeah I'm definitely a Hanyu fan. I really had no idea that the way I worded my response came off as defending Chen, I was honestly just trying to reaffirm what she was saying to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding anything. I'll be more careful with my wording next time to avoid any more misunderstandings.

 

No worries mate. Cheers

[EisElle]

6 hours ago, saltycandy said:

According to IK, who translated that interview on twitter. Pretty sure it should have been "as a result I tended to focus more on MY flaws" instead of "THEIR flaws". At least IK's interpretation goes against almost everything Daisuke has been saying in the past and in the context of his last autobiography the statement as translated makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless Daisuke has a severe personality disorder. (Or maybe he chose rather unfortunate, ambigious words in that interview.) As referred to above, one of his "trademark" characteristics has always been his insecurity and self-deprecation. He said time and again that comparing himself to his fellow competitors made him feel that he was lacking and, if anything, he would get jealous of the qualities others had over him and that would make him aim to be more like them in these aspects. He's always been praising other skaters for what they did well/better than him. 


Here he's praising Taka K. to the heavens:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

And here he briefly talks about Yuzu/his younger rivals (from Friends+ with Shizuka in early 2013):

  Reveal hidden contents

Shi: “What about Yuzu getting so good so fast?” 

Dai: “He is awesome. Always on the offense.” 

Shi: It’s just like young Mao moving up the ranks fast when I was competing at the top.” 

Shi: “Takeshi had no rival. If he were competing now with all the rivals, he’d be even greater.” 

Dai: “I’m where I am because of the younger competitors. I don’t think I’d have been able to jump 2 quads in a program if I didn’t have the rivals.” 

https://fstranslations.tumblr.com/post/84208332514/daisuke-takahashi-x-shizuka-arakawa-friends

 

 

Thank you for clarifying. I don't follow Daisuke closely and of course I have to rely on translations from jpn interviews, so I have to trust translators and their interpretation heck, even my own views and expectation can influence the way I interpret other people's words when I'm reading those translations 

The only direct "impression" I can have about him is from watching his facial expression and the tone of his voice as he speaks of other skaters and to me it always felt like genuine admiration.

 

Anyway, I wonder if there will ever be the chance to see Patrick and Yuzuru share the same ice again. I think Patrick isn't often invited in Japanese ice shows  (or has he ever been invited in the last years?) and who knows if Yuzuru will ever tour in NA shows...it's such a pity

Patrick and Yuzu (and Javi) have been there for so many years, sharing the ice in GP and Worlds and Olympics and I think that Patrick was the only non-yet-retired male skater who could somehow understand the pressure of being on top of the world, the kind of expectations that Yuzuru has faced each competition since Sochi, and how it feels like when you fail to meet those expectations (imo Javi's experience and pressure was a bit different, he was and still is the one to beat in Europe but I don't know if he has really felt that the whole world expected and demanded him to be always perfect, or if he's gone into any WC touted as the overwhelming favourite)

It's a bit sad that the era of Patrick Vs Yuzuru has ended

sorry for bringing the gloominess

[cinemacoconut]

15 hours ago, LadyLou said:

Thank you for clarifying. I don't follow Daisuke closely and of course I have to rely on translations from jpn interviews, so I have to trust translators and their interpretation heck, even my own views and expectation can influence the way I interpret other people's words when I'm reading those translations 

The only direct "impression" I can have about him is from watching his facial expression and the tone of his voice as he speaks of other skaters and to me it always felt like genuine admiration.

 

Anyway, I wonder if there will ever be the chance to see Patrick and Yuzuru share the same ice again. I think Patrick isn't often invited in Japanese ice shows  (or has he ever been invited in the last years?) and who knows if Yuzuru will ever tour in NA shows...it's such a pity

Patrick and Yuzu (and Javi) have been there for so many years, sharing the ice in GP and Worlds and Olympics and I think that Patrick was the only non-yet-retired male skater who could somehow understand the pressure of being on top of the world, the kind of expectations that Yuzuru has faced each competition since Sochi, and how it feels like when you fail to meet those expectations (imo Javi's experience and pressure was a bit different, he was and still is the one to beat in Europe but I don't know if he has really felt that the whole world expected and demanded him to be always perfect, or if he's gone into any WC touted as the overwhelming favourite)

It's a bit sad that the era of Patrick Vs Yuzuru has ended

sorry for bringing the gloominess

 

 

Yet I think if u ask yuzu who was the most memorable rival yuzu may reply Javi over Nathan, shoma and Patrick. 

[Fresca]

On 20/03/2018 at 4:21 AM, meoima said:

- If one wants to say Yuzuru in 2014 is similar to Nathan in 2018, I'd say it's unfair for Yuzuru. Nathan's programs in 2018 are filled with 2-foot skating and simple steps. When I tried to identify the top guys' skating transitions, my coach was like: "What Nathan does is figure jumping, not figure skating. Aside from jumps, Nathan's programs have almost nothing but 2-foot skating + simple footwork." And Yuzuru's programs at Sochi, even if they're not the best artistically performed, they're complex and full of difficult transitions. Yulena (the Russian blogger) intended to do an analysis of Yuzuru's Romeo 2.0 a long time ago with the remark like "It's such a crazily difficult yet so UNDERAPPRECIATED program."

- If you know me, you know that I dislike that Juliet program and the boobskirt so much lol, but it's a very difficult program with so many transitions, I doubt most of the current quad guys can execute it well. I am not a fan of David Wilson but anyway I give credit where credit is due. His programs for Yuzuru indeed were very complex and Yuzuru was on a mission of finding his own style back then, I would not call they were disappointments.

 

Yes it's unfair to compare Yuzu in 2014 to Nathan in 2018. Yuzu chose to chase Patrick by chasing Patrick's skating skills and upping his PCS. He chose to work on where he was weak and Patrick was stronger to challenge Patrick at what he did best rather than focusing on jumps where he had the competitive advantage. That takes guts and a lot of ambition. Nathan went the completely opposite direction. He chose to focus more on his tech where he was strong already rather than chasing after Yuzu's greatest strength- his completeness.

 

On RnJ 2, to compare it to Nathan empty quad-filled 2018 FS does it a disservice. I hope Yulena ends up doing her analysis of RnJ 2 because like you said, it is so underappreciated. As in dance, when watching an FS program, I try not only to evaluate the total package but also to separate the choreography (the "intention" of the program if you will) from the execution of it.

 

While RnJ 1 was Romeo the fighter, RnJ 2 was Romeo the lover. RnJ1 had a wildness and aggression that showed Romeo as the brash youth struggling against his circumstances - him against the world fighting for doomed love. In contrast, the RnJ 2 choreography was softer, sweeter, more elegant. DW borrowed heavily from the grand sweeping gestures of mime in ballet love stories in order to establish Yuzu as the romantic hero first portraying the lightness of being in love and towards the end, realizing the pain it can also bring. DW put together a program with complex footwork, balletic gestures, flowing circular movement, a variety of interesting positions that made use of Yuzu's extension, use of levels for drama, and the necessary FS elements and was able to combine them in such a way that was musical and told the story. It's just too bad Yuzu didn't have the stamina to perform it well and had a costume I hated for this program.

 

If you watch Yuzu's RnJ2 practices where he is wearing UA and he doesn't get tired because he skips parts, you can see how beautiful the choreography is. To give you a specific example, look how DW contrasts the euphoria vs the pain of love by using 2 sections with similar musical phrasing (3:10-3:21 and 4:10-4:21) and a very distinct movement where he bends forward with both arms outstretched buried in a circular choreographic sequence where one is the "light" version (3:17) and one is the "heavy" version (4:20).

 

 

[kaeryth]

@Fresca Thank you!!! R+J2 needs more love

[WinForPooh]

3 hours ago, Fresca said:

 

Yes it's unfair to compare Yuzu in 2014 to Nathan in 2018. Yuzu chose to chase Patrick by chasing Patrick's skating skills and upping his PCS. He chose to work on where he was weak and Patrick was stronger to challenge Patrick at what he did best rather than focusing on jumps where he had the competitive advantage. That takes guts and a lot of ambition. Nathan went the completely opposite direction. He chose to focus more on his tech where he was strong already rather than chasing after Yuzu's greatest strength- his completeness.

 

On RnJ 2, to compare it to Nathan empty quad-filled 2018 FS does it a disservice. I hope Yulena ends up doing her analysis of RnJ 2 because like you said, it is so underappreciated. As in dance, when watching an FS program, I try not only to evaluate the total package but also to separate the choreography (the "intention" of the program if you will) from the execution of it.

 

While RnJ 1 was Romeo the fighter, RnJ 2 was Romeo the lover. RnJ1 had a wildness and aggression that showed Romeo as the brash youth struggling against his circumstances - him against the world fighting for doomed love. In contrast, the RnJ 2 choreography was softer, sweeter, more elegant. DW borrowed heavily from the grand sweeping gestures of mime in ballet love stories in order to establish Yuzu as the romantic hero first portraying the lightness of being in love and towards the end, realizing the pain it can also bring. DW put together a program with complex footwork, balletic gestures, flowing circular movement, a variety of interesting positions that made use of Yuzu's extension, use of levels for drama, and the necessary FS elements and was able to combine them in such a way that was musical and told the story. It's just too bad Yuzu didn't have the stamina to perform it well and had a costume I hated for this program.

 

If you watch Yuzu's RnJ2 practices where he is wearing UA and he doesn't get tired because he skips parts, you can see how beautiful the choreography is. To give you a specific example, look how DW contrasts the euphoria vs the pain of love by using 2 sections with similar musical phrasing (3:10-3:21 and 4:10-4:21) and a very distinct movement where he bends forward with both arms outstretched buried in a circular choreographic sequence where one is the "light" version (3:17) and one is the "heavy" version (4:20).

 

 

Thank you for this! I feel like finally see something of what this programme could've been. In most of the competitions, he went really noodly arms after about the third minute.

[Fresca]

20 hours ago, kaeryth said:

@Fresca Thank you!!! R+J2 needs more love

 

Yes, it does! I try to give it as much love as possible like here! It's so misunderstood!!!

 

18 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

Thank you for this! I feel like finally see something of what this programme could've been. In most of the competitions, he went really noodly arms after about the third minute.

 

@WinForPooh in the video I link to above in this post, I think you can see the choreography at the end even better. What could have been indeed...