Team Japan

[chiraya]

Please tell me, which skaters who also move the blade like him? Why can't they learn the jump with the right technique? If they can't land it, then they haven't learned it right, try again and again and again. Don't use some trick.

[riminin]

7 hours ago, Joey said:

 

In general, yes, likely because nobody can pay for that. But Shoma is sponsored by Toyota, the biggest money source for both JSF and even the ISU itself I think, so I guess that doesn't apply to him.

In this specific case the way more unusual thing is that he is actually at the competition rink. I've never seen anyone allowed to practice in the competition rink more then maybe a day before official practices start. It's super surprising the French really let him do that. And tbh I think it's a weird move from his team - being able to get used to the specific ice on that rink for such a long period gives him an advantage over the other skaters and it's easy to see favoritism in this (again, given how being even allowed to do this is not the norm).

 

Toyota is not listed as official partner for either JSF or ISU. It's an IOC partner. Also, I don't think big money is involved in Shoma's contract as a temporary empolyee with Toyota, as Miki, who had a similar contract before, once said her salary was not much higher than ordinary employees. But of course Toyota has worldwide network that could be very helpful for its athletes taking part in competitions abroad. 

[Joey]

23 minutes ago, Neenah said:

I don't think this is cheating, he is just maximizing his chances and the organizers of the event obviously allowed it. Shoma has a real problem with jet lag so I think it is very smart of his team to send him there early and they have been doing that since last season.

 

They haven't been doing since least season what people dislike about this so much - he was early at events (Lombardia this season, Helsinki for WC), but he never practiced so much on the actual competition rink before. That is the difference, and it is a pretty big one. Shoma always practiced at other rinks in the area, not the ones where the competition would be held. That way, he had no advantage compared to other skaters in getting used to the competition rink. Now he does.

 

 

2 minutes ago, riminin said:

 

Toyota is not listed as official partner for either JSF or ISU. It's an IOC partner. Also, I don't think big money is involved in Shoma's contract as a temporary empolyee with Toyota, as Miki, who had a similar contract before, once said her salary was not much higher than ordinary employees. But of course Toyota has worldwide network that could be very helpful for its athletes taking part in competitions abroad. 

 

Oops, I didn't know they weren't listed, I should be careful with what I say It has nothing to do with how much money Shoma gets from them though - the point is they can afford sending him a week early to a competition to get rid of the jet-lag problem (if JSF isn't paying for it), as it's big & 'wealthy' enough a sponsor.

[Neenah]

5 minutes ago, chiraya said:

Please tell me, which skaters who also move the blade like him? Why can't they learn the jump with the right technique? If they can't land it, then they haven't learned it right, try again and again and again. Don't use some trick.

 

Here you can find my question (it is the first one) on this forum and you can read the answers yourself

Here is an interesting post explaining blades sharpening and position mentioning Shoma as well

http://figureskatingask.tumblr.com/post/164495902412/hi-i-have-some-questions-about-skates-and

 

[Neenah]

Just now, Joey said:

 

They haven't been doing since least season what people dislike about this so much - he was early at events (Lombardia this season, Helsinki for WC), but he never practiced so much on the actual competition rink before. That is the difference, and it is a pretty big one. Shoma always practiced at other rinks in the area, not the ones where the competition would be held. That way, he had no advantage compared to other skaters in getting used to the competition rink. Now he does.

I am not saying it is fair but he was obviously allowed to do it so we can't really call it cheating 

[Joey]

1 minute ago, Neenah said:

I am not saying it is fair but he was obviously allowed to do it so we can't really call it cheating 

 

Oh I wouldn't call it cheating either - I don't think there is any rule against it. It is definitely unfair though, and does speak of some sort of favoritism, given that skaters usually aren't given that privilege.

[axelsandwich]

1 hour ago, Joey said:

 

Oh I wouldn't call it cheating either - I don't think there is any rule against it. It is definitely unfair though, and does speak of some sort of favoritism, given that skaters usually aren't given that privilege.

Do you have a source for that? My impression is that he's not preventing other skaters from doing the same thing, just that they don't for various reasons (also, other sources on Twitter have said the French skaters are also there so idk). Shoma has the sponsorship/ability to take these extra steps to acclimate, of course he's going to take advantage of that. Just like you could argue that my friend and her boyfriend being in the same class share notes/collaborate on writing notes whereas I have to write it all myself could give them an advantage, I can't really be mad or call it 'unfair' - they're not breaking any official rules and they're not preventing me from finding a friend to do the same thing. Sure I think the ISU should have rules in place (esp for athletes from smaller nations who have much less financial power) but they don't, so you can't blame anyone for exploiting loopholes. 

 

You could say he's lucky, but I don't agree with people demonising him for it. If we can't prove the JSF is using a disproportionate amount of funds to let him do it at the expense of other TJ athletes or he's breaking any rules, the hate should stop. 

[Joey]

33 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Do you have a source for that? My impression is that he's not preventing other skaters from doing the same thing, just that they don't for various reasons (also, other sources on Twitter have said the French skaters are also there so idk). Shoma has the sponsorship/ability to take these extra steps to acclimate, of course he's going to take advantage of that. Just like you could argue that my friend and her boyfriend being in the same class share notes/collaborate on writing notes whereas I have to write it all myself could give them an advantage, I can't really be mad or call it 'unfair' - they're not breaking any official rules and they're not preventing me from finding a friend to do the same thing. Sure I think the ISU should have rules in place (esp for athletes from smaller nations who have much less financial power) but they don't, so you can't blame anyone for exploiting loopholes. 

 

You could say he's lucky, but I don't agree with people demonising him for it. If we can't prove the JSF is using a disproportionate amount of funds to let him do it at the expense of other TJ athletes or he's breaking any rules, the hate should stop. 

 

Aren't the other French skaters in that smaller rink somewhere in the same facility? No idea how that would be called, but that's the only videos I saw with them - and that isn't the competition rink itself. Shoma was there today as well AFAIK instead of on the main competition rink again.

No, Shoma is not himself preventing anyone from doing the same thing. There are no rules against what he does AFAIK. And I haven't claimed either. And again, I have absolutely no issue, and I think nobody should have, with him generally getting to a city early to avoid the jet-leg problem. That one is a non-issue and if he has the resources for it, it's only smart to use it.

Eh, and sorry, but I don't think I was demonizing him or hating. If you feel differently, then I'm sorry, but really I just think I called the action itself for what I think it is - unfair treatment compared to other athletes. I'm more irritated with the French rink people and his team here.

[axelsandwich]

14 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Aren't the other French skaters in that smaller rink somewhere in the same facility? No idea how that would be called, but that's the only videos I saw with them - and that isn't the competition rink itself. Shoma was there today as well AFAIK instead of on the main competition rink again.

No, Shoma is not himself preventing anyone from doing the same thing. There are no rules against what he does AFAIK. And I haven't claimed either. And again, I have absolutely no issue, and I think nobody should have, with him generally getting to a city early to avoid the jet-leg problem. That one is a non-issue and if he has the resources for it, it's only smart to use it.

Eh, and sorry, but I don't think I was demonizing him or hating. If you feel differently, then I'm sorry, but really I just think I called the action itself for what I think it is - unfair treatment compared to other athletes. I'm more irritated with the French rink people and his team here.

Apparently he went to both (source screenshotted here). We have no idea if the French skaters were offered the same option or not - if he was the only one allowed on the comp rink and other skaters were explicitly barred then that's one issue but, again, no evidence. 

 

Apologies, I don't think you're demonising him (I may have projected stuff I'm seeing on twitter here) but I do take issue with how you're insisting it's 'unfair treatment'. In what way is it unfair if he hasn't broken a rule or any of the things above and other skaters hypothetically get the same opportunity? I definitely think the ISU should have rules against allowing competitors to go on the comp ice before but that's on the ISU. 

[Joey]

12 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Apparently he went to both (source screenshotted here). We have no idea if the French skaters were offered the same option or not - if he was the only one allowed on the comp rink and other skaters were explicitly barred then that's one issue but, again, no evidence. 

 

Apologies, I don't think you're demonising him (I may have projected stuff I'm seeing on twitter here) but I do take issue with how you're insisting it's 'unfair treatment'. In what way is it unfair if he hasn't broken a rule or any of the things above and other skaters hypothetically get the same opportunity? I definitely think the ISU should have rules against allowing competitors to go on the comp ice before but that's on the ISU. 

 

Had the french skaters got the opportunity to train at the official comp rink, you think they would have declined? You think Mai would have?

 

And if it isn't unfair treatment, then can you tell me when before a skater was allowed on competition ice before official practice then? (The one day aside for skaters arriving early that is often granted). AFAIK, Shoma wasn't either in Lombardia this season or Helsinki the last.He went to other rinks close by. And again, that is fine. And ofc it's on the ISU/French people side, when did I say Shoma was being unfair?

[axelsandwich]

13 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Had the french skaters got the opportunity to train at the official comp rink, you think they would have declined? You think Mai would have?

 

And if it isn't unfair treatment, then can you tell me when before a skater was allowed on competition ice before official practice then? (The one day aside for skaters arriving early that is often granted). AFAIK, Shoma wasn't either in Lombardia this season or Helsinki the last.He went to other rinks close by. And again, that is fine. And ofc it's on the ISU/French people side, when did I say Shoma was being unfair?

I'm not saying it's unlikely but there's no proof right now that the other French skaters didn't get a chance to skate - when there is proof, go and be up in arms about it, I'll join you. Right now, he's just being criticised at length for assumptions that people are making, which strikes me as unfair no matter how likely/unlikely it is. And Mai's not in France yet, so that's irrelevant. I didn't accuse you of saying Shoma is being unfair? We're talking about 'unfair treatment'. It's only unfair treatment at this point if he did any of the 3 things I pointed out above and we have no proof of any of it.    

[Joey]

2 minutes ago, kaerb said:

I'm not saying it's unlikely but there's no proof right now that the other French skaters didn't get a chance to skate - when there is proof, go and be up in arms about it, I'll join you. Right now, he's just being criticised at length for assumptions that people are making, which strikes me as unfair no matter how likely/unlikely it is. And Mai's not in France yet, so that's irrelevant. I didn't accuse you of Shoma being unfair? We're talking about 'unfair treatment'. It's only unfair treatment at this point if he did any of the 3 things I pointed out above and we have no proof of any of it.    

 

To the bolded part, eh-..... yeah. No it isn't, but it would only be going in circles if I tried to argue there and I'd rather skip that part.

I have no idea about where or how Shoma is being "criticized at length" for it, as I have no idea what kind of twitter comments you are talking about here, I have seen all of one being critical of this on my TL, and now a bunch of people also complaining about "the extreme hate train". I'm not arguing on behalf of or against anything I didn't even see/read. If you want to think there is nothing unfair about it, go ahead. I'm not going to repeat myself here

[axelsandwich]

1 minute ago, Joey said:

 

To the bolded part, eh-..... yeah. No it isn't, but it would only be going in circles if I tried to argue there and I'd rather skip that part.

I have no idea about where or how Shoma is being "criticized at length" for it, as I have no idea what kind of twitter comments you are talking about here, I have seen all of one being critical of this on my TL, and now a bunch of people also complaining about "the extreme hate train". I'm not arguing on behalf of or against anything I didn't even see/read. If you want to think there is nothing unfair about it, go ahead. I'm not going to repeat myself here

I have no illusions they all start on the same playing field but it's not Shoma's fault he has more resources to take advantage of this. Again, refer to my example w note-taking above. It's the nature of the sport and competition, even if in an ideal world they shouldn't exist (and the ISU should make rules to minimise stuff like this happening). Clearly we're not going to agree on the unfair part though and I still feel like you missed my point but yeah, let's drop this. 

[beki]

I think it’s important to note that the playing field isn’t level. It’s much more difficult to get top training as a small federation skater. It’s why it’s so impressive for a skater like Julian Yee from Malaysia to get to the Olympics without that level of support. Many sessions he practices on his own without coaching. Yuzu also benefits from the resources he has. But it’s a bad look for Shoma to have access other skaters don’t to competition ice. There’s no rule against it but imo it’s right to frown upon it. Once skaters are at the competition venue, they should face the same conditions.

[axelsandwich]

4 hours ago, beki said:

I think it’s important to note that the playing field isn’t level. It’s much more difficult to get top training as a small federation skater. It’s why it’s so impressive for a skater like Julian Yee from Malaysia to get to the Olympics without that level of support. Many sessions he practices on his own without coaching. Yuzu also benefits from the resources he has. But it’s a bad look for Shoma to have access other skaters don’t to competition ice. There’s no rule against it but imo it’s right to frown upon it. Once skaters are at the competition venue, they should face the same conditions.

I don't think anyone should have access to the competition ice before official practices but it's the ISU's fault that it's not a rule. Maybe you're not understanding my issue. If the reason for Shoma having access that other skaters don't can be proved to be attributed to some systematic issue (eg. other skaters being banned from practising while he's allowed, some conspiracy deal between French venue + JSF to give him exclusive access, JSF denying another JP skater the opp because he's taken it), then it can be said to be clearly 'unfair'.

 

If the reason is merely because he has the sponsorship/money/coaches that enable him to have access to competition ice that others don't have, well...that's 'unfairness' that is unfortunately part of a wider 'game' in the field and life: luck, his hard work leading to Toyota wanting to sponsor him, his team being good at time/money management/getting sponsors etc. You could also say it's 'unfair' that Yuzu has Ajinomoto as a food sponsor so he gets special diet help that other athletes don't get, or Marin gets more publicity because her talent agency gets her TV deals. 

 

I'm arguing this on principle*. I do think the competition ice loophole is a pretty big one because it potentially impacts competition performance - and that's on the ISU to address. But the world doesn't owe you fairness in the latter category, as much as I wish it would. All the skaters are owed is fairness in the first category and there's no proof of Shoma or his team violating any of those. A team with perhaps more 'noble' ideals of sportsmanship may not take advantage of the loophole and I think it's understandable people feel resentful their favourites don't have the same resources but it's not 'unfair' in the same way as the first category. That was my main issue with calls of 'unfairness'. 

 

*so please don't feel like this is a personal attack or anything. I feel like people have this misconception I'm being hostile but I just think it's an interesting discussion and I'm trying to break down my own thought process and principles because it's a tricky area. Open to having my mind changed. Or happy to drop the discussion, whatever.