SEIMEI

[axelsandwich]

7 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

That's what it seems like, and it is a little bit concerning that he needs everything perfect in order to skate well; any small amount of rattling throws him off. I think it's especially concerning that after 2015 GPF he basically cannot make a mistake in a program and bounce back ... before that, say 2013 GPF, even the FS at the Olympics, many of his most inspired skates came after a mistake. I hope he skates absolutely perfectly at the Olympics, because I don't know what will happen if there's a flaw in his first jumping pass. And the fact that it's going to be a quad lutz is also concerning.

Agreed, and I think it's a byproduct of becoming the favourite/chasee and maybe also just losing a bit of that reckless invincible fire of youth as he matures tbqh. His comment that the opening jump is crucial worries me as well and it's the lutz that he's struggled with. That being said, 4CC and WTT FS did show he can recover programs...but he has much less room for error because a larger error won't win against a clean skate or minor error from the sQuad. But I have faith in his skating. Costume...not as much

[yuzuangel]

3 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Costume...not as much

TBH I love the costume. Just politically, not sure it makes a statement. Well, but what else is new? I'm finding ways to worry about him

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@kaerb  & @yuzuangel:

 

Huh...I guess I can see your points. Didn't realize how big a deal it was cos I'm not particular about it. But he's always paid so much attention to his costumes that I guess it's kind of strange that the revamp isn't more obvious. He's always changed the colors at least when he repeats programs. So a different color on the accents would've been a good idea, I guess. The subtlety of the changes, while nice, doesn't seem much like him since the guy doesn't do subtle. Not the gold finishings, those aren't subtle, but in terms of overall design.

 

He's never struck me as a PR-driven skater though. Not the way Uno is being presented anyway. All the costume-related decisions since the ones he's made in the past seem more like personal whims to me than it is about how he wants the audience to view him. They always seem to contain a healthy dose of his own personal whimsy, either copied or original. Like if someone told him the audience is going to give him weird looks, he'd probably shrug it off cos well, he likes it. A lot of his costumes in the past, especially the ones he had pre-Sochi, seem to shout that. Where Uno seems to have a machine working for him so he has this professional-looking finish, Hanyu, even from before, has always seem to give his a more personal touch like, "Here try these cookies! I made them myself!" Which I guess makes it doubly puzzling why he didn't bake a more obviously new and different batch this time. Like he could at least have made chocolate chip instead of oatmeal raisin again--but slightly bigger--this time. xD

 

In fact, everything he does is DIY. Even the music. Like, even if he hadn't chosen it or asked for specific edits himself, if he had someone else suggest something to him, he has to approve it first. So no PR machine. Just a lot of Hanyu. Uno seems more like, he tells his team what he wants and that is to beat Hanyu, and they just handle all the other details that may help contribute towards that while Uno himself just focuses on training, Hanyu seems to always want ro have a hand in every aspect of his skating. And by hand, I mean heavy personal involvement. Uno's is a strategy. Hanyu's is...uh...he's an artist? Lol. Very different styles for very different personalities and skating backgrounds, I guess.

[axelsandwich]

33 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

@kaerb  & @yuzuangel:

 

Huh...I guess I can see your points. Didn't realize how big a deal it was cos I'm not particular about it. But he's always paid so much attention to his costumes that I guess it's kind of strange that the revamp isn't more obvious. He's always changed the colors at least when he repeats programs. So a different color on the accents would've been a good idea, I guess. The subtlety of the changes, while nice, doesn't seem much like him since the guy doesn't do subtle. Not the gold finishings, those aren't subtle, but in terms of overall design.

 

He's never struck me as a PR-driven skater though. Not the way Uno is being presented anyway. All the costume-related decisions since the ones he's made in the past seem more like personal whims to me than it is about how he wants the audience to view him. They always seem to contain a healthy dose of his own personal whimsy, either copied or original. Like if someone told him the audience is going to give him weird looks, he'd probably shrug it off cos well, he likes it. A lot of his costumes in the past, especially the ones he had pre-Sochi, seem to shout that. Where Uno seems to have a machine working for him so he has this professional-looking finish, Hanyu, even from before, has always seem to give his a more personal touch like, "Here try these cookies! I made them myself!" Which I guess makes it doubly puzzling why he didn't bake a more obviously new and different batch this time. Like he could at least have made chocolate chip instead of oatmeal raisin again--but slightly bigger--this time. xD

 

In fact, everything he does is DIY. Even the music. Like, even if he hadn't chosen it or asked for specific edits himself, if he had someone else suggest something to him, he has to approve it first. So no PR machine. Just a lot of Hanyu. Uno seems more like, he tells his team what he wants and that is to beat Hanyu, and they just handle all the other details that may help contribute towards that while Uno himself just focuses on training, Hanyu seems to always want ro have a hand in every aspect of his skating. And by hand, I mean heavy personal involvement. Uno's is a strategy. Hanyu's is...uh...he's an artist? Lol. Very different styles for very different personalities and skating backgrounds, I guess.

Thing with Yuzu is that I get it. He marches to the beat of his own drum and has a very very set idea of what kind of performance and image he wants to portray, and it's usually very particular. There are some things I am so grateful he takes charge of - the music, for example, which definitively eclipses all the awkward mashups we've seen so far and he's demonstrated repeatedly he is very musically sensitive/gifted. The problem is...he's not media trained, he's not PR-trained and I don't expect him to be attuned to the subtext of fashion and politicking. But where Shoma is malleable and content to let 'experts' take care of things like his costumes/media/PR (which is why his presentation is much more polished), Yuzu's headstrong-ness and individuality can sometimes interfere with that.

 

Someone trained in media would be able to tell him that 'freshening' his visual image would be essential in a year where people are already grumbling about his two recycled programs. Which is why I really don't understand the bolded - if this is indeed his final costume, then his superstition is worrying because he's never recycled his costumes to this extent. 

 

I completely see him stubbornly pushing ahead like 'I will let my artistry and skating speak for itself and remain true to my vision' (very much along the Yuna Kim vein of 'I'm just here to skate well and blow everyone away and I have no one to answer to but myself'). And while I can definitely appreciate that, when it comes to the pointy end, things like media narratives, packaging and even just causing excitement in an audience...it can make a difference. And fashion is such a small difference to execute but huge on public perception.  

 

It won't matter if he can skate two ideal skates but I'm just saying this doesn't... help him =___=; ANYWAY. CoR. We'll find out for sure. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@kaerb: But that *is* part of Hanyu's appeal. And he got this far only by the virtue of essentially being himself. Uno seems more like a prized horse in a race with a machine running the show behind him. Hanyu is both the horse and the machine. Or he's the machine running the race himself.

 

He's never been PR-unfriendly but instead of a professional finish, he has a home-made, genuine feel to his image, which is more accidental than designed. The only things that are designed about Hanyu are his goals. Sure, that's bound to also include some rough edges and questionable decisions and if that includes recycled-looking outfits, I'd still take those over him suddenly looking all pre-packaged by professionals because it'd at least still be all him. It'd feel unnatural if he were to suddenly not be. Like he's playing the same game as everyone else. That's just not who he is or why he skates, I feel.

 

He doesn't play into the business and the political side of it, so he'll never be a tool for those things. His entire skating life defines him inherently. He's kind of like Weir in this respect. It's *him*. That's why his skating always feels so personal and so him. To me, everything about Uno including his skates seems more like a product of something or someone else. Like a boyband. Even his skating has become a by-product of all that. The only thing that's Uno is the action of skating. That's fine for Uno. But it's not Hanyu. The guy is the very embodiment of the poem Invictus. And he's more than proven that all these other things ultimately hold no influence on neither his skating career nor the results he's produced. 

 

It doesn't help his image, sure, but his skating has never been about image, and the results he's gotten are purer for it, I feel. Because he doesn't pull the wool over people's eyes. What you see *is* what you get. And being at the top despite that, is what makes him so unique and different from all skaters now and in the past.

 

Which is why I'm not complaining or criticizing as much I guess, because I'm happy with just that. I mean I get that it's puzzling that the SEIMEI costume didn't have a color change in at least some small way. I'm puzzled too after what both you and @yuzuangel have pointed out but everything else, I totally understand and wholeheartedly buy into. Wonderfully presented commercial-based cuisine is nice and all but my tastes ultimately run more towards home-cooking. >_<

 

I mean it's not a bad thing what you're asking for. I guess we're just coming from different places. Aesthetics have never been one of the reasons I've gotten deeply into anything or anyone. It's usually more about how genuine they are, even if they fall short of others in certain more controlled aspects.

 

[Xen]

I prefer the way Yuzuru handles himself now. It's refreshing and I think why he is somewhat immune to politics. He doesn't say much, but when he does say anything, people listen, and usually believe him.

 

As for the seimei costume- I'm inclined to think that the one shown at ACI is not the final version. But whatever happens, I do wonder if he'll keep the orchid pattern. The symbolism fits him perfectly-"perfection, purity, dignity, nobility, masculine pefection."

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Yeah the thing is, when athletes get to his position, they usually become a "product". Even Plushenko became one. Hanyu is one of the most successful, famous and loved athletes to have ever emerged, and probably THE most of all those things when it comes to figure skating, but you can clearly tell that he isn't a product. At all. He hasn't cashed in on his success and any commercial-based endeavor he's ever done seems more like he's fulfilling the bare minimum obligations of what's expected of a highly successful athlete.

 

When he does ice shows, even as a headliner, he's still appearing in them the same way he always has--as a challenger, using the ice show as a ground to polish his skills and test out new things instead of as the star he really is. And given where he came from and all that he's been through and all the people he considers as his support pillar, I don't think he'll ever be able to position himself as someone who's up on a pedestal, far removed from those who admire him, and seek to gain monetarily from them.

 

So if something does not directly concern his skating and the subsequent results produced by said skating, he'll likely just keep going about it in his own earnest way. I mean even when it does concern his skating and results, he's stubborn about it. How many years and dead brain cells did it take for Brian to finally get him to at least partially listen when it comes to competition strategy? I doubt a PR/image advisor will ever be anywhere in the books for him, given how far removed he considers it from his actual skating, and how sincere he is in showing his audience who he really is.

 

Like he's said, he is no one other than himself. Yuzuru Hanyu. Nothing more and certainly nothing less.

[axelsandwich]

1 hour ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

@kaerb: But that *is* part of Hanyu's appeal. And he got this far only by the virtue of essentially being himself. Uno seems more like a prized horse in a race with a machine running the show behind him. Hanyu is both the horse and the machine. Or he's the machine running the race himself.

 

He's never been PR-unfriendly but instead of a professional finish, he has a home-made, genuine feel to his image, which is more accidental than designed. The only things that are designed about Hanyu are his goals. Sure, that's bound to also include some rough edges and questionable decisions and if that includes recycled-looking outfits, I'd still take those over him suddenly looking all pre-packaged by professionals because it'd at least still be all him. It'd feel unnatural if he were to suddenly not be. Like he's playing the same game as everyone else. That's just not who he is or why he skates, I feel.

 

He doesn't play into the business and the political side of it, so he'll never be a tool for those things. His entire skating life defines him inherently. He's kind of like Weir in this respect. It's *him*. That's why his skating always feels so personal and so him. To me, everything about Uno including his skates seems more like a product of something or someone else. Like a boyband. Even his skating has become a by-product of all that. The only thing that's Uno is the action of skating. That's fine for Uno. But it's not Hanyu. The guy is the very embodiment of poem Invictus. And he's more than proven that all these other things ultimately hold no influence on neither his skating career nor the results he's produced. 

 

It doesn't help his image, sure, but his skating has never been about image, and the results he's gotten are purer for it, I feel. Because he doesn't pull the wool over people's eyes. What you see *is* what you get. And being at the top despite that, is what makes him so unique and different from all skaters now and in the past.

 

Which is why I'm not complaining or criticizing as much I guess, because I'm happy with just that. I mean I get that it's puzzling that the SEIMEI costume didn't have a color change in at least some small way. I'm puzzled too after what both you and @yuzuangel have pointed out but everything else, I totally understand and wholeheartedly buy into. Wonderfully presented commercial-based cuisine is nice and all but my tastes ultimately run more towards home-cooking. >_<

 

I mean it's not a bad thing what you're asking for. I guess we're just coming from different places. Aesthetics have never been one of the reason I've gotten deeply into anything or anyone. It's usually more about how genuine they are, even if they fall short of others in certain more controlled aspects.

 

I guess we approach this issue from different angles because I don't think there's anything inherently fake or disingenuous about packaging something nicely, as long as the substance underneath is there. Which it is in spades. Pretty packaging won't detract from the fact Yuzu skates wholeheartedly and genuinely. Good packaging, I think, only serves to enhance what he has and draw attention to it, making the bright points brighter and, thus, drawing people's attention away from the things the audience tends to fixate on that distract from his skating, whether justified or not. 

 

I mean, we're just talking about a colour change here. I'm not suggesting Yuzu suddenly get Shoma-style costumes at all, but I understand that 'home-cooking' style skaters like Yuzu don't always have an instinctive understanding of the influence of packaging. The devaluing of the audience/media narrative is something that happens a lot with skaters (and people tbh) who feel like their work should speak for themselves and I agree that in a perfect world, merits and substance should win over style...but I'm a cynical media student and I know that's not always true. It's not Yuzu's responsibility to play 'the game' but the costume was an easy way for him to at least not be disadvantaged by it and I hope his coaching team are aware of that.  

[SparkleSalad]

I think this whole thing could have been avoided if only he'd had a Japanese Johnny Weir costume to be inspired by. 

 

Or just hired Johnny to design again. 

 

I bet I just made you all feel really good about the new costume.

[Xen]

15 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

I think this whole thing could have been avoided if only he'd had a Japanese Johnny Weir costume to be inspired by. 

 

Or just hired Johnny to design again. 

 

I bet I just made you all feel really good about the new costume.

...I don't know if Seimei with a boobskirt would work...or a strawberry 2.0 rendition of Seimei....*shudders*

[SparkleSalad]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

...I don't know if Seimei with a boobskirt would work...or a strawberry 2.0 rendition of Seimei....*shudders*

 

Fanartists, you have a new challenge!

[kaeryth]

.....

Here's a 'breaking the seal' gif for everyone to be in awe with..

 

 

[SparkleSalad]

3 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

.....

Here's a 'breaking the seal' gif for everyone to be in awe with..

 

 

 

Serious chills, and they just kept replaying the footage! How does he survive being so dramatic and theatrical?

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

2 時間前, kaerbさんが言いました:

I guess we approach this issue from different angles because I don't think there's anything inherently fake or disingenuous about packaging something nicely, as long as the substance underneath is there. Which it is in spades. Pretty packaging won't detract from the fact Yuzu skates wholeheartedly and genuinely. Good packaging, I think, only serves to enhance what he has and draw attention to it, making the bright points brighter and, thus, drawing people's attention away from the things the audience tends to fixate on that distract from his skating, whether justified or not. 

 

I mean, we're just talking about a colour change here. I'm not suggesting Yuzu suddenly get Shoma-style costumes at all, but I understand that 'home-cooking' style skaters like Yuzu don't always have an instinctive understanding of the influence of packaging. The devaluing of the audience/media narrative is something that happens a lot with skaters (and people tbh) who feel like their work should speak for themselves and I agree that in a perfect world, merits and substance should win over style...but I'm a cynical media student and I know that's not always true. It's not Yuzu's responsibility to play 'the game' but the costume was an easy way for him to at least not be disadvantaged by it and I hope his coaching team are aware of that.  

 

I don't necessarily find pre-packaging fake either, and it's even necessary for some, like Uno, whose packaging, imo, represents a solid 75% of his very quick and very incredible success. But it does make it harder to see who the person really is under all that glitter and superficial pizzazz, especially if that person doesn't have strong innate charisma to begin with. It's all smoke and mirrors with the vague image of the true self beneath. For Hanyu, it might enhance him, and his personality still ringing out strong and true, but the enhancement won't happen without also stamping out the less PR-friendly but more endearing side of him, which ultimately deviates from who he truly is, which is what we're getting now, both the good and the bad. Out there. On the ice.

 

What I'm saying is, this isn't who Hanyu is. And so long as he gets the results he wants, anything and everything else isn't necessary. Maybe they won't hurt but they're not necessary. I get that your field of study means this is an angle you think he should explore, but ultimately, it's neither something Hanyu needs nor seems to be interested in exploring. Why make it seem more important that it really is, for someone like Hanyu? If he loses, it's not going to be because he was disadvantaged by a lack of edge to his image, it's going to be because he lost to his own mental freaking blocks. That's it. And even if his less than perfect skates are better than the best any well-packaged top contenders can offer on a good day but he got edged out simply because they are more well-packaged, Hanyu, as he is now, doesn't consider it a true win unless he delivered his skates perfectly anyway. The kuyashii level would be way too high for him to be able to enjoy it.

 

'sides, you're talking as though he does this all the time when it's only really this season. He's given us new costumes every season, or revamped ones, and he's even switched out costumes mid-season. And it's always full of sparkles, and eye-catching, which is more than what I can say about most Western skaters. Those can change costumes every time and have stylists and what not and they do look nice but they're also oh-so-conservative. So any differences they may have season to season are highly understated still. It's not like Hanyu has ever been that. So he wants to do things in a way he feels means most to him this season, even if it looks old to people who have paid at least a bit of attention to him but look what happened when he scored that WR. With lower difficulty tech content (compared his original layout and to others) *and* in a completely untouched costume*. He could've skated that in a baggy Hawaiian shirt tucked into a fundoshi, or that butt ugly Vertigo costume, and people would still wax poetic about him and his skating that dking he has to stick to tay.

 

Anyway, this season, unlike all other seasons he's been through, is the one season that's the culmination of all his years of dreaming and hard work. It's Yuzuru Hanyu the skater's penultimate season. He owes this season to noone but himself and he should present himself and enjoy it the way he sees fit. I mean it's okay if you yearn to see something more from him but so long as he's happy, I say let him be. I hope he is anyway, because that worry about him clinging to the past because he feels it's what he has to do to win is pretty legit. But if he does well anyway, I guarantee it, whatever his costumes now turn out to be or don't turn out to be, they are going to look like the best things ever even to the harshest of fashionista skating enthusiasts. Cos although not new, they still look good. And most definitely not a fundoshi.

 

I'm saying all this because while it'd be nice if we get to see more obvious changes to his costumes, or in this case, his SEIMEI one, even if what we saw at ACI *is* the final product or if he decides to switch back to what he wore back in 2015/16, it's not a huge issue, or ultimately even an issue at all, where his skating is concerned. And that's all that should truly matter to all of us. 

 

(Also, if he's never been media-trained, than that's one heck of a talent he has when handling the media o.O)

 

*I do hope he'll change his Chopin one, though, or at least have an extra set of it because after a full season of wearing it and 9 ice shows, I'm not sure the wear-and-tear won't start to show if he decides to use it all through this season as well. >_<

[axelsandwich]

1 hour ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I don't necessarily find pre-packaging fake either, and it's even necessary for some, like Uno, whose packaging, imo, represents a solid 75% of his very quick and very incredible success. But it does make it harder to see who the person really is under all that glitter and superficial pizzazz, especially if that person doesn't have strong innate charisma to begin with. It's all smoke and mirrors with the vague image of the true self beneath. For Hanyu, it might enhance him, and his personality still ringing out strong and true, but the enhancement won't happen without also stamping out the less PR-friendly but more endearing side of him, which ultimately deviates from who he truly is, which is what we're getting now, both the good and the bad. Out there. On the ice.

 

Spoiler

 

What I'm saying is, this isn't who Hanyu is. And so long as he gets the results he wants, anything and everything else isn't necessary. Maybe they won't hurt but they're not necessary. I get that your field of study means this is an angle you think he should explore, but ultimately, it's neither something Hanyu needs nor seems to be interested in exploring. Why make it seem more important that it really is, for someone like Hanyu? If he loses, it's not going to be because he was disadvantaged by a lack of edge to his image, it's going to be because he lost to his own mental freaking blocks. That's it. And even if his less than perfect skates are better than the best any well-packaged top contenders can offer on a good day but he got edged out simply because they are more well-packaged, Hanyu, as he is now, doesn't consider it a true win unless he delivered his skates perfectly anyway. The kuyashii level would be way too high for him to be able to enjoy it.

 

'sides, you're talking as though he does this all the time when it's only really this season. He's given us new costumes every season, or revamped ones, and he's even switched out costumes mid-season. And it's always full of sparkles, and eye-catching, which is more than what I can say about most Western skaters. Those can change costumes every time and have stylists and what not and they do look nice but they're also oh-so-conservative. So any differences they may have season to season are highly understated still. It's not like Hanyu has ever been that. So he wants to do things in a way he feels means most to him this season, even if it looks old to people who have paid at least a bit of attention to him but look what happened when he scored that WR. With lower difficulty tech content (compared his original layout and to others) *and* in a completely untouched costume*. He could've skated that in a baggy Hawaiian shirt tucked into a fundoshi, or that butt ugly Vertigo costume, and people would still wax poetic about him and his skating that dking he has to stick to tay.

 

Anyway, this season, unlike all other seasons he's been through, is the one season that's the culmination of all his years of dreaming and hard work. It's Yuzuru Hanyu the skater's penultimate season. He owes this season to noone but himself and he should present himself and enjoy it the way he sees fit. I mean it's okay if you yearn to see something more from him but so long as he's happy, I say let him be. I hope he is anyway, because that worry about him clinging to the past because he feels it's what he has to do to win is pretty legit. But if he does well anyway, I guarantee it, whatever his costumes now turn out to be or don't turn out to be, they are going to look like the best things ever even to the harshest of fashionista skating enthusiasts. Cos although not new, they still look good. And most definitely not a fundoshi.

 

I'm saying all this because while it'd be nice if we get to see more obvious changes to his costumes, or in this case, his SEIMEI one, even if what we saw at ACI *is* the final product or if he decides to switch back to what he wore back in 2015/16, it's not a huge issue, or ultimately even an issue at all, where his skating is concerned. And that's all that should truly matter to all of us. 

 

(Also, if he's never been media-trained, than that's one heck of a talent he has when handling the media o.O)

 

*I do hope he'll change his Chopin one, though, or at least have an extra set of it because after a full season of wearing it and 9 ice shows, I'm not sure the wear-and-tear won't start to show if he decides to use it all through this season as well. >_<

 

 

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. But just to clarify, I'm only talking about a costume colour change, not any other type of media/PR packaging - no 'stamping out the non-PR sides of him' needs to happen, just a change of fabric (colour...). When I refer to 'packaging', I'm just using it as shorthand to talk about his costumes/visual presentation, not his personal brand or personality/how his personality comes across. 

 

I don't agree costumes don't matter but I agree it'll be relatively negligible if he delivers his ideal skates and it definitely won't be the deciding factor if he loses. Like I said earlier, if this is what he needs to deliver, I won't begrudge him for it. I won't pretend that I agree wholeheartedly with the decision though - I think there were better choices they could have made that could have achieved a better balance between remaining true to Yuzu while also not causing him disadvantages from the media side. Especially given his history with costume changes, this is an uncharacteristic decision...but hey, it's not boobskirt 2.0 so it's not going to be a disaster and I'm not freaking out over it being a disaster.* 

 

(the boy's a smart cookie, the fact he's very good with the media doesn't surprise me. But branding and media/journalism are different games to play) 

 

*this is probably my Yuzu-level perfectionism talking - can't help seeing a more 'ideal' image and being kuyashii that we were so close but not quite there. I'll get over it. He won't read any of this anyway lol I just enjoy shouting into the void...