Landings, mechanics, etc of FS jumps

[beki]

I think Shoma's extremely low/scraping-the-ice free leg is a bit different from what is understood to be a "two-foot landing" like Mao's 3A here:

Which occurs before the free leg "unravels" and is often an indication of under-rotation. I would say Shoma's low free-leg is more like putting the free leg down early instead of having a clean running edge, because it happens after he unravels and if it touches the ice it's helping to support him. It's much less egregious than a two-foot.

Yes, it's definitely different. It's still a little bit of a balance aid, though, isn't it? It's hard to break down the sequence of what he's doing. He is unraveled, but the leg goes low so quickly it seems like "during" the landing instead of "after." I don't know how to evaluate it, but I would think all these points added together would suggest giving lower GOE. *shrugs* *also bows down to Fresca*

[unicorn]

beki said:

unicorn said:

I think Shoma's extremely low/scraping-the-ice free leg is a bit different from what is understood to be a "two-foot landing" like Mao's 3A here:

Which occurs before the free leg "unravels" and is often an indication of under-rotation. I would say Shoma's low free-leg is more like putting the free leg down early instead of having a clean running edge, because it happens after he unravels and if it touches the ice it's helping to support him. It's much less egregious than a two-foot.

Yes, it's definitely different. It's still a little bit of a balance aid, though, isn't it? It's hard to break down the sequence of what he's doing. He is unraveled, but the leg goes low so quickly it seems like "during" the landing instead of "after." I don't know how to evaluate it, but I would think all these points added together would suggest giving lower GOE. *shrugs* *also bows down to Fresca*

I definitely agree it warrants lower GOE, because it doesn't show complete control like a landing with a high free leg using great extension. I think Shoma's free leg isn't purposefully acting as a balance aid, although any point of the contact does help support, but I think it's a clear product of his extremely low knee-bend and wrenched landings, which could/should also lower GOE. The judges gave him +0.71 GOE on that landing at COR, mostly +1s, one -1, and one +2. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

[meoima]

I definitely agree it warrants lower GOE, because it doesn't show complete control like a landing with a high free leg using great extension. I think Shoma's free leg isn't purposefully acting as a balance aid, although any point of the contact does help support, but I think it's a clear product of his extremely low knee-bend and wrenched landings, which could/should also lower GOE. The judges gave him +0.71 GOE on that landing at COR, mostly +1s, one -1, and one +2. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

It's not just low GOE, if judges do apply the guidelines properly, it's negative GOE they should have given.

Even if we do not take pre-rotation into the account, that kind of landings can/should get -1 across the board if the skater were just some no name guy.

And if It were me in the panel, -2 at least.

[kaeryth]

Shoma's jumps scare me... not just for him but for the sport. I'm hearing commentators say that that's his 'signature landing'. I'm glad Kurt Browning said something about his jumps. And we've got juniors/novices saying they admire Shoma for his jumps which is troubling. People are staring to treat his jump as 'his style' instead of just being bad techniques.

 

I hope Nathan doesn't let the dream of an OGM wreck havoc on his body. He already had a hip injury and I don't want him to have another. I hope him and his team think about his health as well.

[Mitya]

Mao Asada had been chasing for her imperfect jump techniques all her carrier. Sometimes it cost her gold medal, sometime any medal and chance for podium. Despite her unique 3A, excellent foot work and beautiful skating in whole. Them make her to relearn whole skating skills from beginning. Then it seems right thing to do, because there was skaters with better jumps and they fairly was getting rewarded. But now, when everyone suddenly find out that judges doesn't care about what are you jumping lutz/flutz/lip/or even some weird mix of edge-toe jump/3.25 instead of quad,  I'm feeling really sorry for Mao. Well, she just was skating in the wrong era.

 

And it's just ridiculous to see how someone trying justify them with funny explanations "not enough time, not enough camera work to notice all of this things".

[Lys]

20 hours ago, unicorn said:

I definitely agree it warrants lower GOE, because it doesn't show complete control like a landing with a high free leg using great extension. I think Shoma's free leg isn't purposefully acting as a balance aid, although any point of the contact does help support, but I think it's a clear product of his extremely low knee-bend and wrenched landings, which could/should also lower GOE. The judges gave him +0.71 GOE on that landing at COR, mostly +1s, one -1, and one +2. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gprus2016/gprus2016_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

 

I would list that kind of "touch down" in "Touch down with one hand or free foot" category (which is worth a -1 in GOE count), I wouldn't list it as a "normal" two-feet landing either.

 

[unicorn]

5 minutes ago, Lys said:

 

I would list that kind of "touch down" in "Touch down with one hand or free foot" category (which is worth a -1 in GOE count), I wouldn't list it as a "normal" two-feet landing either.

 

I would agree with it being a touch down of the free foot, Lys!

[Fresca]

On 13/05/2017 at 23:24, kaeryth said:

Shoma's jumps scare me... not just for him but for the sport. I'm hearing commentators say that that's his 'signature landing'. I'm glad Kurt Browning said something about his jumps. And we've got juniors/novices saying they admire Shoma for his jumps which is troubling. People are staring to treat his jump as 'his style' instead of just being bad techniques.

 

That is indeed very scary and troubling. This is why having skaters like Akiko Suziki call his jumps "textbook" is so disappointing. It's sending the message that these landings are correct when in reality they are highly increasing the risk of injury to the skater. I hope Shoma fixes his jumps before it's too late.

 

On 13/05/2017 at 23:24, kaeryth said:

I hope Nathan doesn't let the dream of an OGM wreck havoc on his body. He already had a hip injury and I don't want him to have another. I hope him and his team think about his health as well.

 

Yes, me too. Unfortunately, there aren't any signs of him slowing down. Didn't Rafael Aruntyunyan say Nathan has new things up his sleeve for next season?

 

Frankly, I'm surprised Nathan isn't paying more attention to his hip alignment in his jumps and working more to fix it given his background in ballet. Keeping the hips square and aligned is part of ballet fundamentals. It's key to performing many of the basic ballet steps and positions like rond de jambe and arabesque. If he's done an extensive amount of ballet, it should theoretically be a habit for him to keep his hips properly aligned as much as possible.

 

[meoima]

18 hours ago, Fresca said:

That is indeed very scary and troubling. This is why having skaters like Akiko Suziki call his jumps "textbook" is so disappointing. It's sending the message that these landings are correct when in reality they are highly increasing the risk of injury to the skater. I hope Shoma fixes his jumps before it's too late.

Yes, me too. Unfortunately, there aren't any signs of him slowing down. Didn't Rafael Aruntyunyan say Nathan has new things up his sleeve for next season?

Frankly, I'm surprised Nathan isn't paying more attention to his hip alignment in his jumps and working more to fix it given his background in ballet. Keeping the hips square and aligned is part of ballet fundamentals. It's key to performing many of the basic ballet steps and positions like rond de jambe and arabesque. If he's done an extensive amount of ballet, it should theoretically be a habit for him to keep his hips properly aligned as much as possible.

 

3

Do you know the biggest issue with all of this? Because there is no legitimate critics in Figure skating. Phil Hersh only understands the number of quads, Jackie Wong does not even know what is wrong with pre-rotation, the skating lesson only gossip and do not even know what are true transitions.

 

In this sport, when the coaches/judges/specialists/famous ex-skaters speak up, it's usually about politiking, politiking and politking. Mishin trashed Mao's 3A because he wanted to boost Liza. Mishin also occasionally trashed Yuzuru for either Liza or Gachinski.

 

Frank Carol trashed Mao because he wanted to boost Gracie. And even Brian Orser in the early days of his coaching career, he talked with tech specialists and judges about UR and wrong edge jumps to boost Yuna Kim. And I am sure Brian knows about the technical issues of Javi (weird lutz), Shoma (pre-rotation, Flutz, weird landings), Nam, even Nathan (tilled landings)... but he never speaks up about it. 

 

The thing is, many people in the known KNOW but never speak up. Dimitri Aliev's coach KNOWS that Shoma has bad technique, he did imply that in one of his interviews but never spoke up about it publicly. Mishin implied about Shoma's bad technique several times but also never spoke up publicly. They avoid mentioning that issue, and maybe one day, their students might get benefits from the same,

 

That's why when Patrick Chan spoke up about the quad issues when he mentions Nathan and Shoma, he was trashed rigorously even though I am sure what he meant was just the same as Fresca, Adelia and many people have spoken up. 

 

It is the kind of world where people know things but they never speak up. And people who do not know things keep speaking up and getting attention.

[Sombreuil]

Perhaps we need an orthopaedic surgeon on the panel

[mcq]

Fresca, dear! Always lovely to see your insight on jump techniques and jump alignment.

 

If it is not too much trouble for you, can you elaborate about the jump technique and jump alignment among the top 6 men (Yuzuru, Shoma, Boyang, Javier, Patrick and Nathan) at worlds (maybe on take off, air position, checkout+landing, something like that)? It would be such a wonderful insight (you can copy paste what you have written before for those you have explained), because though I can see that there is something wrong, I can't word it as well, detailed and knowledgeable as you. 

 

Thank you beforehand 

 

[Fresca]

6 hours ago, mcq said:

Fresca, dear! Always lovely to see your insight on jump techniques and jump alignment.

 

If it is not too much trouble for you, can you elaborate about the jump technique and jump alignment among the top 6 men (Yuzuru, Shoma, Boyang, Javier, Patrick and Nathan) at worlds (maybe on take off, air position, checkout+landing, something like that)? It would be such a wonderful insight (you can copy paste what you have written before for those you have explained), because though I can see that there is something wrong, I can't word it as well, detailed and knowledgeable as you. 

 

Thank you beforehand 

 

 

Thanks so much for the compliments!!!

When I have time, I'll rewatch and try to put together a post with my commentary on their jumps from what I know. I'm afraid I'm not sure I'll be able to comment on take off because dance is so different from figure skating in this regard (for example, in dance all jumps begin with the same push off the floor- the plie- either on 1 foot or 2 and there is no such concept as prerotation because turnout is proper technique in ballet) but I will try to comment on everything else.

[Yatagarasu]

Bumping this thread up, just so everyone knows we've moved house!

Hope you continue guys, and thanks again for all the detailed explanation @Fresca

[the50person]

Finally got through the 3 existing pages and goodness, I leave feeling way more knowlegeable than when I first clicked the link into here.  for all who have explained things so patiently and detailedly.

[the50person]

http://the50-person.tumblr.com/post/162162634788/the-real-xmonster-figure-skating-jump

 

Skaters and their most signature quads