Japanese study group

[五十嵐 美幸]

8 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Italian!

Oooh true true, ageru has already got me pretty perplexed more than a couple of times hahaha!

 

I didn't know that and I find it pretty funny as well, but somehow I'm not surprised 

 

Okay, since I'm at work waiting on a client and studying with my book, I'm just gonna throw a very specific question: I am studying the helping verb 'sugiru' to say 'too much', 'to an excess', and I'm trying to understand how to say 'You are studying too much'. It's written here that sugiru conjugates as a normal -ru verb, and follows the verb stems (so the part before masu). ((I'm just explaining so I give a sense to my reasoning, not because I think you need it ofc)). But how do I give a sense of continuity? anata wa benkyoushisugiteimasu? anata wa benkyousugiteimasu? Somehow they don't sound right?? 

(problems of not having any Japanese friends and/or teachers xD)

 

Please feel free to throw me questions any time - PM as well, I might not always see it on the thread.

 

And this is actually an excellent example how book learning doesn't translate into language mastery.

 

Technically, the naninani (wo) shisugiru form applies, but as for your proposed sentences...

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not that you are in any sense wrong. It's just the book knowledge thing.

 

But to adjust it to how a Japanese person would say it, on the assumption that the speaker wants to tell the addressee that they are studying to much

 

obenkyou, shisugi... deha arimasen ka

 

now in detail:

 

personal pronouns like anata are used in Japanese only to differentiate - like, stupid example, she likes pasta, I like rice - or sometimes, mostly in legal context, for clarification. To address someone, the "o" or "go" honorific prefix is used to indicate you are talking to - and also at times about - someone else.

 

shisugi obviously is doing too much of something.

 

Beyond that, no Japanese - in normal conversation; again, there are exceptions for special circumstances - would ever make a statement about what someone else is doing,so they would approach is as a question, like in this case:

 

deha arimasen ka - which is roughly like a "wouldn't it be possible..."

 

Punctation above as in where to pause and such.

 

Leaving aside at least half a dozen other ways to say it, the take away to remember is that you don't - never ever even if you're dead sure you're right - say something about anyone else as a statement. Always and only as question/suggestion.

 

Even if you were worried they're overdoing it and, for example, weren't taking care of their health, you'd still phrase it as not a statement.

 

For example, in colloquial among (female) friends:

 

Ne... kono goro, amari genki deha nasasou... chotto, obenkyou, shisugi deha nai no...

 

deha nai no being a colloquial female equivalent of deha arimasen ka

 

Sorry for the late answer, it's so HOT, I had to take a COLD shower. (Since sadly looking at Yuyu looking cool at Makuhari doesn't help making ME feel cool. )

[Hydroblade]

42 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

i think that one is definitely not the one you're looking for because the shi comes from "-suru"? The second one sounds better to me...

ETA: This is another thing i remember, my teacher said that auxiliar verbs are the ones that get conjugated, like motteiku<- iku is the one you conjugate

After looking at Miyuki's answer i see why i was thrown off

You said the verb "sugiru"  

But she's right, iirc you NEVER make strong statements about someone else, even if you are talking to them or you are close to them. 

[yuzuangel]

I just started taking lessons! どうぞよろしく~

[五十嵐 美幸]

4 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

I just started taking lessons! どうぞよろしく~

 

がんばってください。

[Hydroblade]

7 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

I just started taking lessons! どうぞよろしく~

YEEEES JOIN US 

[五十嵐 美幸]

3 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

YEEEES JOIN US 

 

If you are prepared for lectures when Hydro induces me to go on and on and on...

 

OT, how do I get multiquote to make me multiquote? T_T

[Hydroblade]

Just now, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

If you are prepared for lectures when Hydro induces me to go on and on and on...

 

OT, how do I get multiquote to make me multiquote? T_T

next to "quote" there is a plus sign, on the lower right corner a dialog appears that says "multiquote x posts" you click on that and you get the quoted posts :)

And i can talk about these things for days

[Murieleirum]

5 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

Technically, the naninani (wo) shisugiru form applies,

 

Oh, so shisugiru is a specific verb xD Should have seen it coming (I bet my book will explain it some other time... or not).

 

7 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

After looking at Miyuki's answer i see why i was thrown off

You said the verb "sugiru"  

But she's right, iirc you NEVER make strong statements about someone else, even if you are talking to them or you are close to them. 

 

Yes, because the book was explaining me sugiru... then I tried to make up examples of how to use it, to write on my copybook, but of course I had to pick the phrase that required for a different verb altogether xD I mean, thinking of putting helping verb after helping verb did seem just... not right. 

 

7 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

personal pronouns like anata are used in Japanese only to differentiate - like, stupid example, she likes pasta, I like rice - or sometimes, mostly in legal context, for clarification. To addresses someone, the "o" or "go" honorific prefix is used to indicate you are talking to - and also at times about - someone else.

 

Ah, thank God finally I know how to substitute the damn 'anata' everyone is telling us not to use xD 'o' or 'go', noted. 

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

Beyond that, no Japanese - in normal conversation; again, there are exceptions for special circumstances - would ever make a statement about what someone else is doing,so they would approach is as a question, like in this case:

 

deha arimasen ka - which is roughly like a "wouldn't it be possible..."

 

Punctation above as in where to pause and such.

 

Leaving aside at least half a dozen other ways to say it, the take away to remember is that you don't - never ever even if you're dead sure you're right - say something about anyone else as a statement. Always and only as question/suggestion.

 

You know, this is actually probably a cultural barrier I'll have to work on to overcome, and remember every time. To me, it's so absurd that you cannot express a statement about someone else. I mean, I also understand it. I might even share and appreciate the philosophy behind it. It's just that I've been raised with a complete different way of talking, so I'm pretty certain I'll have troubles remembering this many times. 

Anyways, I'm familiar with the "wouldn't it be possible" form, and I'll try to keep it in mind, hehe 

16 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

For example, in colloquial among (female) friends:

 

Ne... kono goro, amari genki deha nao sou... chotto, obenkyou, shisugi deha nai no_

 

deha nai no being a colloquial female equivalent of deha arimasen ka

 

Yes, yes, it all makes sense now. Thank you so much for correcting me. 

 

18 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

And this is actually an excellent example how book learning doesn't translate into language mastery.

 

I actually have no presumption whatsoever to master Japanese only through a grammar book. I do know that I'll have to go there for -at least- some time to really be somewhat fluent, and even then, mastery is really too big of a word. 
I am listening to Japanese every day, with subtitles and without, English subs and Japanese subs, I am trying to apply what I learn through books by talking to myself or to the few Japanese people I know. But this is all I can do right now - my grammar book is actually the only thing right now that can give me a sense of progress being made. It's the closest thing I have to: "Sorry, how do you say "..."?" 

So I understand how native speakers or people who grew up with that language think that the books are obsolete, but... sometimes, it's the only thing some people have ^^ 

 

Again, thank you so much for the explanations and suggestions! I will definitely ask again  

[Hydroblade]

1 minute ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Oh, so shisugiru is a specific verb xD Should have seen it coming (I bet my book will explain it some other time... or not).

 

 

Yes, because the book was explaining me sugiru... then I tried to make up examples of how to use it, to write on my copybook, but of course I had to pick the phrase that required for a different verb altogether xD I mean, thinking of putting helping verb after helping verb did seem just... not right. 

 

 

Ah, thank God finally I know how to substitute the damn 'anata' everyone is telling us not to use xD 'o' or 'go', noted. 

 

You know, this is actually probably a cultural barrier I'll have to work on to overcome, and remember every time. To me, it's so absurd that you cannot express a statement about someone else. I mean, I also understand it. I might even share and appreciate the philosophy behind it. It's just that I've been raised with a complete different way of talking, so I'm pretty certain I'll have troubles remembering this many times. 

Anyways, I'm familiar with the "wouldn't it be possible" form, and I'll try to keep it in mind, hehe 

 

Yes, yes, it all makes sense now. Thank you so much for correcting me. 

 

 

I actually have no presumption whatsoever to master Japanese only through a grammar book. I do know that I'll have to go there for -at least- some time to really be somewhat fluent, and even then, mastery is really too big of a word. 
I am listening to Japanese every day, with subtitles and without, English subs and Japanese subs, I am trying to apply what I learn through books by talking to myself or to the few Japanese people I know. But this is all I can do right now - my grammar book is actually the only thing right now that can give me a sense of progress being made. It's the closest thing I have to: "Sorry, how do you say "..."?" 

So I understand how native speakers or people who grew up with that language think that the books are obsolete, but... sometimes, it's the only thing some people have ^^ 

 

Again, thank you so much for the explanations and suggestions! I will definitely ask again  

I'm a big opposer of "i need to go there to be fluent" or " i need to speak with natives to be fluent!"

Simply because i achieved english fluency without really speaking the language. My english classes encouraged us to speak english but it was way below my level, and well, peer pressure, no one replied in english and when i did... let's say my classmates never liked that. Or the teachers.

I think i only SPEAK english three times a year or less, for a combined total of maybe four or five hours? And that's since my cousin, who only speaks english, comes to visit and i'm the only one who can chat with her. I don't live in a bilingual environment either so yeah... I don't think it's 100% necessary to get to a good level of any language  

[五十嵐 美幸]

5 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Oh, so shisugiru is a specific verb xD Should have seen it coming (I bet my book will explain it some other time... or not).

 

 

Yes, because the book was explaining me sugiru... then I tried to make up examples of how to use it, to write on my copybook, but of course I had to pick the phrase that required for a different verb altogether xD I mean, thinking of putting helping verb after helping verb did seem just... not right. 

 

 

Ah, thank God finally I know how to substitute the damn 'anata' everyone is telling us not to use xD 'o' or 'go', noted. 

 

You know, this is actually probably a cultural barrier I'll have to work on to overcome, and remember every time. To me, it's so absurd that you cannot express a statement about someone else. I mean, I also understand it. I might even share and appreciate the philosophy behind it. It's just that I've been raised with a complete different way of talking, so I'm pretty certain I'll have troubles remembering this many times. 

Anyways, I'm familiar with the "wouldn't it be possible" form, and I'll try to keep it in mind, hehe 

 

Yes, yes, it all makes sense now. Thank you so much for correcting me. 

 

 

I actually have no presumption whatsoever to master Japanese only through a grammar book. I do know that I'll have to go there for -at least- some time to really be somewhat fluent, and even then, mastery is really too big of a word. 
I am listening to Japanese every day, with subtitles and without, English subs and Japanese subs, I am trying to apply what I learn through books by talking to myself or to the few Japanese people I know. But this is all I can do right now - my grammar book is actually the only thing right now that can give me a sense of progress being made. It's the closest thing I have to: "Sorry, how do you say "..."?" 

So I understand how native speakers or people who grew up with that language think that the books are obsolete, but... sometimes, it's the only thing some people have ^^ 

 

Again, thank you so much for the explanations and suggestions! I will definitely ask again  

 

I can't answer all of your post in detail now because even someone with my weird sleep habits has to sleep some time, but I think you got what I said. I'll read again after regaining consciousness - - just in case.

 

About the cultural barrier issue I'd love to talk more - if that's okay here by admins, hydro? To me, that would be a totally interesting topic, how culture influences language.

 

And if you like, I'll make you a deal, that is, you get to ask me one question, whenever it comes up, your books don't answer and I'll try to do that instead, on the condition that you keep studying and answer questions I might have about your culture. :)

 

 

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, Hydroblade said:

I'm a big opposer of "i need to go there to be fluent" or " i need to speak with natives to be fluent!"

Simply because i achieved english fluency without really speaking the language. My english classes encouraged us to speak english but it was way below my level, and well, peer pressure, no one replied in english and when i did... let's say my classmates never liked that. Or the teachers.

I think i only SPEAK english three times a year or less, for a combined total of maybe four or five hours? And that's since my cousin, who only speaks english, comes to visit and i'm the only one who can chat with her. I don't live in a bilingual environment either so yeah... I don't think it's 100% necessary to get to a good level of any language  

 

True, I can totally understand that and even share the experience with you. My English teachers all hated me as well  But I practiced it. Even if I didn't go to America or England or anywhere, I practiced it on the internet. I used to roleplay in English eeeevery day, so many hours. I think that's what slowly helped me become really fluent. In the end, though, I did also study English grammar at school.

 

With Japanese, I feel like it's going to be a different experience (for me). For now, I don't feel confident enough to speak on a regular basis with Japanese people. I don't have enough knowledge, kanji wise, grammar wise, anything wise. 

But moreover, what makes me think that I need to go there, is the culture. You've seen it with what Miyuki corrected of my sentence: the problem wasn't the grammar per se, but the fact that no Japanese person would actually say that, and, even worse, they'd be offended if I said that! I definitely need/want/dream of going to Japan because to learn their language, I have to learn the culture, and I'd rather learn that living there, than by watching tv shows, anime, movies, and so on. Of course that helps, of course a very motivated and dedicated person can learn the language through those things. But I'd rather have actual contact with people, that's all.

 

I firmly believe, though, that language learning is an experience that everyone lives differently. You'll never hear me say that there's only one true way to do it, because I don't believe it. 

[Murieleirum]

2 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

And if you like, I'll make you a deal, that is, you get to ask me one question, whenever it comes up, your books don't answer and I'll try to do that instead, on the condition that you keep studying and answer questions I might have about your culture. :)

 

Deal  And Good night! 

[Hydroblade]

1 minute ago, Murieleirum said:

 

True, I can totally understand that and even share the experience with you. My English teachers all hated me as well  But I practiced it. Even if I didn't go to America or England or anywhere, I practiced it on the internet. I used to roleplay in English eeeevery day, so many hours. I think that's what slowly helped me become really fluent. In the end, though, I did also study English grammar at school.

 

With Japanese, I feel like it's going to be a different experience (for me). For now, I don't feel confident enough to speak on a regular basis with Japanese people. I don't have enough knowledge, kanji wise, grammar wise, anything wise. 

But moreover, what makes me think that I need to go there, is the culture. You've seen it with what Miyuki corrected of my sentence: the problem wasn't the grammar per se, but the fact that no Japanese person would actually say that, and, even worse, they'd be offended if I said that! I definitely need/want/dream of going to Japan because to learn their language, I have to learn the culture, and I'd rather learn that living there, than by watching tv shows, anime, movies, and so on. Of course that helps, of course a very motivated and dedicated person can learn the language through those things. But I'd rather have actual contact with people, that's all.

 

I firmly believe, though, that language learning is an experience that everyone lives differently. You'll never hear me say that there's only one true way to do it, because I don't believe it. 

Is just that i've seen so many people get discouraged from learning a new language because everyone says "you need to immerse yourself!" "you need to speak with natives!". Sadly that's not always possible, but they talk about it like there is no other way. If you are motivated enough, that is not going to stop you.

[Hydroblade]

4 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

I can't answer all of your post in detail now because even someone with my weird sleep habits has to sleep some time, but I think you got what I said. I'll read again after regaining consciousness - - just in case.

 

About the cultural barrier issue I'd love to talk more - if that's okay here by admins, hydro? To me, that would be a totally interesting topic, how culture influences language.

 

And if you like, I'll make you a deal, that is, you get to ask me one question, whenever it comes up, your books don't answer and I'll try to do that instead, on the condition that you keep studying and answer questions I might have about your culture. :)

 

 

The cultural influences are extremely interesting to me! I think that as long as we keep politics out of it, and we are respectful with each other, there shouldn't be any problems with that :)

[五十嵐 美幸]

One last comment - and then I'll REALLY be of to sleep - on immersion.

 

And, that's just very much only MY view.

 

But, being fluent in two European languages - though maybe having had lessons in Latin might have helped, too - and having casually looked at others, with never enough free time to follow through, I think European root languages are so similar to each other, immersion isn't needed. In particular as the cultural background - for Europe and off shots, Christian (as cover all term) - is the same.

 

So in that regard hydro is absolutely right.

 

But with languages outside the same cultural background, I think it's more complicated - and therefore benefits from immersion - because there isn't any common background　people need to learn not just "a language," but rather cultural context.

 

In that regard, though for tomorrow, if anyone is interested, the reception of the Matrix movie in Japan was really interesting.

 

But going to try to sleep now.

 

では、またあした。お休みなさい。