Japanese study group

[Hydroblade]

1 minute ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

Don't worry, even Japanese do it. 

 

Or let me rephrase that: be aware you have the tendency and try to avoid it, but if you're just talking to someone in an everyday situation, don't worry about it. Nobody's going to expect you to be perfect.

 

Actually, no one will expect you to be perfect if you were talking to Majabe-kaicho either. But what I'd recommend is that if you know in advance you're going to meet some high ranking person like that - or even "only" someone important to you, like Yuzu - you think ahead of what you want to say and "polish" it.

 

Because even while they wouldn't expect it, they'd feel honoured that you made the effort to do it. 

 

If you do'd repeat it often enough to yourself, you'd even remember it when/if you meet. 😉

Talking about the "impression you want to leave", is this. 

 

I definitely should practice it more  

One thing though, using overly formal language wouldn't make the other person uncomfortable? Or is it always appreciated that you are trying to speak in a formal way? Like it wouldn't make me look like a "textbook only" foreigner?

Sorry for the questions but it's something that kinda worries me haha

[Danibellerika]

30 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

Don't worry, even Japanese do it. 

 

Or let me rephrase that: be aware you have the tendency and try to avoid it, but if you're just talking to someone in an everyday situation, don't worry about it. Nobody's going to expect you to be perfect.

 

Actually, no one will expect you to be perfect if you were talking to Majabe-kaicho either. But what I'd recommend is that if you know in advance you're going to meet some high ranking person like that - or even "only" someone important to you, like Yuzu - you think ahead of what you want to say and "polish" it.

 

Because even while they wouldn't expect it, they'd feel honoured that you made the effort to do it. 

 

If you do'd repeat it often enough to yourself, you'd even remember it when/if you meet. 😉

 

 

Exactly, re 今日は。Though actually you sometimes do use 今日 in spoken language, if it's used as きょう = today. Just not as the こんにちは greeting.

 

お as in お上手 or also for example お元気ですか you generally use when whatever you're saying refers to the person you're talking to, like saying they are good at something or inquiring after their health.

 

The difference is "mine" vs "yours" - for example, talking about "my parents" it's "親 / おや" but asking after their's it's "ご両親 / ごりょうしん"

 

And saying things indirectly actually is historically a cultural thing, not saying something outright avoids embarrassment. Like, if you say your throat has dried out, it leaves the other person with the options, like offering you something to drink or suggest you go for coffee or so or just say something like "大変ですね。" if for example they can't offer you something. Or don't want to have anything to with you, without having to say so. 

 

Can't of course isn't so common these days, but historically, if someone not well off couldn't have afforded to offer whatever was implied, commiserations would suffice. While in case of an outright "I'm hungry/thirsty" they'd have to admit they can't afford it would have embarrassed both them and you. 

 

Pardon the history the history lesson, please.

 

One more thing on verbs - pesky things  - it would be "お腹が空いてきました" because it's a process over time (for want of a better way to explain it). But also, you'll be understood the way you said it as well.

 

Oh and it's お腹 even if it's your own because it's a thing that deserves respect, but that'll a whole different topic again.

 

 

You know, I've actually it as 空いてきました too.  Good to know, but see it gets confusing because your throat drying out is also a process over time.  My eyes are starting to cross.   Thanks though. Definitely not an overnight process. 

 

This also is something I wonder about. Like, am I overdoing it if I saw -mas -mas -mas -desu -desu -desu for everything? I thought I remembered that you can dial it back a little the keigo while still being respectful. I dunno. 

 

30 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

It's pretty funny that as soon as i select は it suggests 羽生 makes some interesting sentences haha

Hey, that's why it's there, right! 

[五十嵐 美幸]

2 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

Talking about the "impression you want to leave", is this. 

 

I definitely should practice it more  

One thing though, using overly formal language wouldn't make the other person uncomfortable? Or is it always appreciated that you are trying to speak in a formal way? Like it wouldn't make me look like a "textbook only" foreigner?

Sorry for the questions but it's something that kinda worries me haha

 

Please feel free to ask any question you like, it makes it easier to answer (even if the answer might be complicated).

 

I actually wonder here if I'm explaining too much, like with that long thing as to why things are said indirectly...

 

For the question now, like almost everything in Japan and Japanese, the answer is a resounding, unequivocal "it depends." 😅

 

Everyday life, normal keigo is fine for everything including work and other more formal settings.

 

With friends or even close colleagues or so you can be less formal, of course, but personally I'd still err rather on a little more polite then a little less. 

 

It's actually again an experience thing, what "feels right" for any given situation, like, you wouldn't address your teacher the same way you'd address your classmates. 

 

And even if you'd sound a bit textbook first, they'd be more impressed with that than very casual talk.

 

The case for specially preparing was pretty much for special circumstances and when you know in advance. 

 

For example, if there were a meet and great with Yuzu somewhere and you'd get to go, he'd never "think less" of you if you'd just say, "yokatta desu," but I think he - and his Japanese minders - would definitely be pleasantly surprised if you'd say "お目にかかって、光栄ですです" (Though if you ever get the chance to do that, take a spy camera, I want a picture of his face!  )

[五十嵐 美幸]

2 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

You know, I've actually it as 空いてきました too.  Good to know, but see it gets confusing because your throat drying out is also a process over time.  My eyes are starting to cross.   Thanks though. Definitely not an overnight process. 

 

This also is something I wonder about. Like, am I overdoing it if I saw -mas -mas -mas -desu -desu -desu for everything? I thought I remembered that you can dial it back a little the keigo while still being respectful. I dunno. 

 

...

 

 

Easy rule: the LAST verb in a sentence should be keigo. Those before can be simpler form. 

 

友人と渋谷に行って、食事とおしゃべりして、それからどうしょうとおもって、結局、一緒に映画を観に行きました。

[Hydroblade]

19 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

Please feel free to ask any question you like, it makes it easier to answer (even if the answer might be complicated).

 

I actually wonder here if I'm explaining too much, like with that long thing as to why things are said indirectly...

 

For the question now, like almost everything in Japan and Japanese, the answer is a resounding, unequivocal "it depends." 😅

 

Everyday life, normal keigo is fine for everything including work and other more formal settings.

 

With friends or even close colleagues or so you can be less formal, of course, but personally I'd still err rather on a little more polite then a little less. 

 

It's actually again an experience thing, what "feels right" for any given situation, like, you wouldn't address your teacher the same way you'd address your classmates. 

 

And even if you'd sound a bit textbook first, they'd be more impressed with that than very casual talk.

 

The case for specially preparing was pretty much for special circumstances and when you know in advance. 

 

For example, if there were a meet and great with Yuzu somewhere and you'd get to go, he'd never "think less" of you if you'd just say, "yokatta desu," but I think he - and his Japanese minders - would definitely be pleasantly surprised if you'd say "お目にかかって、光栄ですです" (Though if you ever get the chance to do that, take a spy camera, I want a picture of his face!  )

So i guess this is one of those things where actual practising with natives would come in handy, to get a better sense of when to use the various degrees of politeness? 

13 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

 

Easy rule: the LAST verb in a sentence should be keigo. Those before can be simpler form. 

 

友人と渋谷に行って、食事とおしゃべりして、それからどうしょうとおもって、結局、一緒に映画を観に行きました。

 this is an easy rule to remember thanks haha

[Danibellerika]

4 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

 

Easy rule: the LAST verb in a sentence should be keigo. Those before can be simpler form. 

 

友人と渋谷に行って、食事とおしゃべりして、それからどうしょうとおもって、結局、一緒に映画を観に行きました。

 

When I'm making sentences like that, I didn't know there was another way. There is? But what I mean is if I have a string of sentences, like in a paragraph. Am I overdoing it for every since sentence to be keigo? That's what I default to be on the safe side, even with people I'm more familiar with. For example, if I was on facebook and one of my facebook friends (we're more like acquaintances) posted a picture of a yummy dessert.  Would it still be polite to say "美味しそう!  どこで買いましたか。" or should I still say "美味しそうです! どこで買いましたか。"

[五十嵐 美幸]

7 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

So i guess this is one of those things where actual practising with natives would come in handy, to get a better sense of when to use the various degrees of politeness? 

 this is an easy rule to remember thanks haha

 

It's like everything else, the more you practice, the better you get, so yes, talking a lot and in a variety of situations would help.

 

This actually is what I meant some time ago when I said that while immersion isn't a must, it certainly helps.

 

And that rule isn't actually one out of a grammar book, but something like "Miyuki's personal explanations" thing; I'm sure books and language teachers can explain it over several chapters in much more complicated terms. 😅

 

2 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

 

When I'm making sentences like that, I didn't know there was another way. There is? But what I mean is if I have a string of sentences, like in a paragraph. Am I overdoing it for every since sentence to be keigo? That's what I default to be on the safe side, even with people I'm more familiar with. For example, if I was on facebook and one of my facebook friends (we're more like acquaintances) posted a picture of a yummy dessert.  Would it still be polite to say "美味しそう!  どこで買いましたか。" or should I still say "美味しそうです! どこで買いましたか。"

 

If it's more an acquaintance than a real friend, the latter would be better. 

 

It's actually hard to overdo the desu/masu unless you talk to real friends. 😀

[Murieleirum]

40 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

For example, if there were a meet and great with Yuzu somewhere and you'd get to go, he'd never "think less" of you if you'd just say, "yokatta desu," but I think he - and his Japanese minders - would definitely be pleasantly surprised if you'd say "お目にかかって、光栄ですです" (Though if you ever get the chance to do that, take a spy camera, I want a picture of his face!  )

 

Excuse me while I tattoo this on my hand in case I ever get the chance to actually say it to his face 

[Danibellerika]

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

It's like everything else, the more you practice, the better you get, so yes, talking a lot and in a variety of situations would help.

 

This actually is what I meant some time ago when I said that while immersion isn't a must, it certainly helps.

 

And that rule isn't actually one out of a grammar book, but something like "Miyuki's personal explanations" thing; I'm sure books and language teachers can explain it over several chapters in much more complicated terms. 😅

 

 

If it's more an acquaintance than a real friend, the latter would be better. 

 

It's actually hard to overdo the desu/masu unless you talk to real friends. 😀

Thank you for that clarification.  I guess another sign is if they start using less keigo with you?  

 

Also, back to the 今日は, thing. When you wrote that all I thought about was きょうは. I had no idea people use that as こんにちは. But I guess I understand how that can happen.  Also, in speech, when the は is omitted, unless my imagination is failing me, I think I've also noticed slight pauses some times. But it might also be the elongation of the vowel that gives it that impression.  

[Hydroblade]

13 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

And that rule isn't actually one out of a grammar book, but something like "Miyuki's personal explanations" thing; I'm sure books and language teachers can explain it over several chapters in much more complicated terms. 😅

Complicated terms aren't always better  my teachers simplify the rules a lot so we can remember them, although like i said, the teaching is largely pattern based instead of drilling grammar into our skulls 

 

[五十嵐 美幸]

5 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Excuse me while I tattoo this on my hand in case I ever get the chance to actually say it to his face 

 

Don't forget the spy camera!!!

 

But seriously, it's a good expression to remember, since you never know when you might meet someone you admire.

 

For once it even has a relative close English equivalent.

[五十嵐 美幸]

6 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Thank you for that clarification.  I guess another sign is if they start using less keigo with you?  

 

Also, back to the 今日は, thing. When you wrote that all I thought about was きょうは. I had no idea people use that as こんにちは. But I guess I understand how that can happen.  Also, in speech, when the は is omitted, unless my imagination is failing me, I think I've also noticed slight pauses some times. But it might also be the elongation of the vowel that gives it that impression.  

 

There are definitely pauses; that's why I use so many commata in typing, to indicate those. 

 

Actually sometimes it's easier with comma, for example

 

お返事、お待ちしております。

 

is less (phonetically as well as visually) awkward than 

 

お返事をお待ちしております。

 

1 minute ago, Hydroblade said:

Complicated terms aren't always better  my teachers simplify the rules a lot so we can remember them, although like i said, the teaching is largely pattern based instead of drilling grammar into our skulls 

 

 

Pattern based isn't my favourite because it can limit you - a frequent problem Gaba or previously NOVA taught Japanese have when going overseas - but I'm totally for keeping it simply. 

 

I read a text book explanation of the various levels of politeness in Japanese once that would have made me drop out of the course immediately.

 

But then again my eyes glace over when someone starts throwing the various names for those levels at me.

[Murieleirum]

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

Don't forget the spy camera!!!

 

But seriously, it's a good expression to remember, since you never know when you might meet someone you admire.

 

For once it even has a relative close English equivalent.

 

Of course, I will buy a contact lense spy camera! 

 

I remember, before I discovered the impossibility of meeting Yuzuru up close (or the close-to-impossibility) and when I had just started studying Japanese, I memorized "Could we please take a picture together?" 

[Hydroblade]

3 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Of course, I will buy a contact lense spy camera! 

 

I remember, before I discovered the impossibility of meeting Yuzuru up close (or the close-to-impossibility) and when I had just started studying Japanese, I memorized "Could we please take a picture together?" 

Hey you never know hope dies last!

[五十嵐 美幸]

4 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Of course, I will buy a contact lense spy camera! 

 

I remember, before I discovered the impossibility of meeting Yuzuru up close (or the close-to-impossibility) and when I had just started studying Japanese, I memorized "Could we please take a picture together?" 

 

Don't give up, you never know what might happen! 

 

And how did you say that? Just out of curiosity. 

 

1 minute ago, Hydroblade said:

Hey you never know hope dies last!

 

THAT!

 

And it's a good thing, too.