meoima

5 minutes ago, hamaguri said:

 

I didn't notice it but it's a bit stragenge.  He usually talks so much about a reason of his choice.  He was confortable with his skating of Ballade, it's true, but he didnt mention the reason of choice so far. Instead, ANA's shirota-san responded.  He may talk from now in his interviews or so...

In his recent interview, he did not say it clearly that he will skate to Chopin 3.0 right? I mean directly from his mouth like: "yes, I will use this for the Olympic season."

And he did not even say anything concrete about the final layout? I mean other than just 4T3T in the second half? 

Thank you.

59 minutes ago, Dara said:

Speaking of Adelina. It was announced today that she'll be at Mao's THE ICE: http://fs-theice.com/cast-list/追加キャスト第2弾が発表されました！/

The chance of Adelina going back to competition is almost Zero.

35 minutes ago, unicorn said:

I agree that there's still a possibility of changing it, I'm guessing after FaOI is over and Yuzuru reconvenes with his team and gets time with Jeff, we might hear something different. It's unlike them to state his programs so early in the season, so I think there is room to change and maybe his team wanted to gauge the reactions (from fans, the audience, judges and officials who might have heard the news).
Like you said, there's also some safety in performing a program that has previously been evaluated highly by judges, plus the comfort of not having to completely relearn choreography. Chopin has always been very loved by judges, even with mistakes. But I feel like +GOEs and PCS are going to be high for everyone next season, it's the Olympic season and the ISU is planning big changes to the scoring after Pyeongchang, it's time to throw out marks like candy to everyone. I just don't want him to psyche himself out by thinking he needs to do it perfectly at the Olympics (a defensive position), a new program without baggage of living up to past performances might have also been good (an attacking position).

1

I am sure next season judges will give out scores like candies to everyone. And I doubt Yuzuru and his team don't know that. This season they already saw that. However... a consistent SP is very much needed for Yuzuru as well. He can not risk having weak SP again and again during the Olympic season. Because a clean or semi-clean SP will help with his LP PCS and GOE. His weak (well weak...) Let's Go Crazy harmed Hope and Legacy score a lot. So he has to consider, whether to play gamble with the SP and lose the ground in LP or get a very stable SP to help to elevate LP.

Will he add the 4lz in SP? I am sure he wants to. That's why he is practising it. But will his 4lz to be stable enough in time to appear in SP? That's a big question. I am sure 4lz will be in LP though.

That's why it will be interesting to see Yuzuru's plans when he reveals his programs and final layouts next season in August. 

7 minutes ago, b138oo said:

 

Okay so he had 5 clean streaks? Is that back to back? I mean GPF, Nats, Oly team, Oly are back to back for sure. Not sure when was TEB. Well, yeah the current layout is harder, but PW 2.0 layout was hard for an eighteen-turned-nineteen-at-Dec-2013 Yuzu too. So, another 5 clean streak is still possible for the 22 y.o Yuzu 

 

Looking at the record, PW's ridiculous consistency was the main reason Yuzu broke the 100 pts barrier at Sochi then. I guess Yuzu probably wants to go this route once again. A reliable SP with the consistency of his current 4T. 

 

seriously Yuzu just bring back that consistency once every 4 years 

Yes, TEB-GPF-National-OlympicTeam-Olympic individual... 5 clean SP back to back.

But PW had weaker layout compared to Yuzuru's current ambition. So I don't expect Yuzuru to be that consistent in SP.

My friend even joked she's not shocked had Yuzuru decided to put 4lz3T as the last jump pass in SP lol.... and I was like: "Well Yuzuru is saner than that." 

41 minutes ago, unicorn said:

Yuzuru "I'm starting to have negative feelings about the short program" Hanyu had 5 clean back-to-back short program skates culminating in his WR breaking Olympic performance. And 2 WR skates to that program the season before. That doesn't sound like a non-SP skater to me, Yuzu.

Psychologically, having a program that he's comfortable with must be such a benefit that we can't even imagine. This couldn't have been a decision he made lightly, he's very in tuned to the reaction and reception of his programs (how he knew about the lukewarm reception to H&L, how he talked about not repeating SEIMEI after the 2015-16 season because he'd felt he'd done enough with it, how he prefaced his 2014 Worlds EX to R+J as saying "he knows he can never replicate the emotions and exact circumstances that contributed to that singular performance [at Worlds 2012]") and I'm sure he knew of the reaction he'd get for repeating Chopin. Or, if he didn't predict it, I'm absolutely certain he's now aware of the backlash. But above all, this is the choice he decided to make and the criticisms he's choosing to answer. It certainly brings its own set of challenges.

I am sure Yuzuru knows repeating a program 3 times is no easy at all. So I still think we should not rule out the possibility of a new SP after FaOI when Jeff has time with him.

However, even if he indeed will skate to a new version of Chopin again, I doubt that judges will give him lower PCS than 48 if he goes clean. And his elements for sure won't get below +2 if he does it perfectly. Because judges can not give less than that with the quality he has.

Look at Hope and Legacy... Yuzuru might have been underscored around 5 points there, but LP has more elements than SP. So, if we take into account that judges act coldly towards Chopin 3.0, a great performance from him will not get underscored more than 2.5-3 points.

I doubt that they will go further than that. A score around 105-110 is enough to keep him in the last group, thus will help with the PCS and GOE in the LP.

31 minutes ago, akaokitty said:

If I'm not mistaken I think only twice, at SA and NHK. Because I remember at FT, GPF and Worlds he wasn't 1st after SP... and if he went clean he would've been. At 4CC he was 1st after SP but I remember his score was in 80s..

Oh man thinking about all this reminds me of ndp. Watching SA and 4CC ndp makes my heart hurt lol.

PW 1.0 he was clean at SA, NHK and National 2012.

PW 2.0 he was clean at TEB, GPF, National 2013, Olympic team, Olympic individual. 

But those was the time of 4T 3A and 3lz3T.

His current SP will have 2 quads... so we should not expect that kind of consistency. 

15 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Now that you're saying it like this... you're making me have doubts about what is the more realistic outcome 

Nathan Chen without proper transitions also only did maximum 4 clean performance back to back (National and 4CC) and he did that without huge pressure. So I guess the maximum of male skaters going clean with multi quads is not high. 

I am sure Yuzuru isn't unrealistically thinking that he can skate whole season clean. 

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

Thank you for those, morning programs aren't my fortune. ^^;

 

I feel a little bit bad for all the other performers at the show though, in all of the programs it sounded more like some single Yuzu thing... ^^; with the ice shows just mentioned as an afterthought... ^^;

In a way, it's huge pressure and expectation on Yuzuru as well.

Other skaters can get paid (well ice shows are for having fun and getting paid...) and move on without pressure. While Yuzuru has to become the headline.

I only remember this happened to Yuna and Mao. Now it's all on Yuzuru. Such pressure and expectation. But he is strong, he is used to it. He can get over it. 

I am sure I would feel offended if my people told me I don't sound like them.

well I don't sound like them, cause I am into stuffs they mostly never care about. And my way of talking and thinking isn't like them. But I am still the same as my people and I understand their attitude. 

5 minutes ago, liv said:

I was thinking parts of the program did not quite fit the music perfectly either, but didnt want to say it. I do not want to say it is because we know the old one so well, but that could be the reason. I am not worried, though, because I think 3.0 is still a work in progress and it will become more its own program with time. Right now I am still in comparing mode. 

Well Jeff has been on ice shows for 2 months straight. I am sure Yuzuru being the perfectionist he is, will drag Jeff to the Mariposa ice rink and adjust the program as much as he wants once FaOI is finished. I am sure Jeff wants that too, they're a winning duo.

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think I would have been traumatized a little, had I been in your place xD
Honestly, this is one thing (among a bunch of other things) I will never like about Japanese culture. Their inability to 'loosen' up to hierarchy or social standards. But this comes from my culture and my personal history. As an italian, I am used to people being familiar and joke with one another, no matter the social positions, even 2 minutes after you've been introduced to one another. And if it happens that someone doesn't like that familiarity, you can always apologize. And as a person, I was always a rebel to social hierarchy. I always hated to get up in the class when the Principal of the school entered. Okay this is totally Off Topic. I just wanted to share with someone the cultural clash I am living, as an italian studying Japanese xDDD

I was not traumatized but that incident did leave a strong impression on me. Those sportmen were all friendly and easy to talk to, they didn't give me some rigid or serious vibe of Japanese stereotypes. However, when they thought their senior (senpai) was not respected, they reacted like it's a tabboo and should be stopped. I was like: "no... it was just a joke". But it's true that the hierarchy code among them do exist. So I am not surprised that normal Japanese people who don't follow some interviews among skaters are unfamiliar and surprised at the friendly and less serious attitude when it comes to their way of name calling and addressing the senior.

I remember my Japanese friend once told me that, many Japanese young skaters didn't talk with Mao, not because they're rude. But because they're scared. Mao is a legend and all. So they're scared of talking to her directly.

However, I do think that, Yuzuru as a senior in this case, also encourages the younger skaters to be more friendly and loosen up around him. 

Let's not talk about the 4lz for now, which I am certain we will see it from him.

There is a reason he needs a consistent SP. Because as long as he does SP well, he will be among the lead after SP (if not the leader) and skating late means his PCS and GOE won't be affected badly.

One big reason why Hope and Legacy didn't get much love was also because Yuzuru didn't skate Let's Go Crazy very well and had to skate quite earlier than usual in the FS. 

Had he skated last at Helsinki, Hope and Legacy could have gotten 230. So, by giving a consistent SP, he is guaranteed with better positions in the free. Now... he might have something even bigger in the free that we don't know of... what about 3A3Lo? Or even 4-3-3...

20 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

WOW, could you please re-read what I said?

 

Since I did NOT say Shoma is rude, nor that he means to be rude - in fact, I explicitly stated that I do NOT think he meant to be arrogant - but that he comes across that way, by not following standard Japanese practice.

 

As for "their culture," that happens to be MY culture as well, just for the record.

Since I have several Japanese friends. I understand your feelings. In college, I worked several years as a volunteer at a sport arena and happened to guide several Japanese sport teams who came to the arena for competitions. And while they're all sportmen and being freely and friendly with all, there was a certain code among them regard the hierarchy standard.

Like one time, the leader of the Japanese fencing team I was guiding came late, and I was just joking at her that "Oh you're late!", the other members told me to be quiet and their looks were like: "No! She's our senpai, you are not supposed to talk to her like that." 

So, certainly I can understand your feelings. But I guess the skaters grow up in a more international environment so they don't follow that kind of code and standards as you, as a Japanese, has gotten used to.

By the way, during that time, I happened to guide Jun Mizutani (the ping pong player) when he was young and was not the Olympic medalist yet. 

Am I the only one who doesn't care about how these skaters address each other? 

I only care about their skating, their performance on ice, their music, and of course, whether some skaters cheats their jumps or not. 

16 minutes ago, GreatLakesGal said:

 

But is choosing to go "the safe route" really the wisest choice to make when you already have one Olympic Gold Medal and are the current World Champion?  When someone says "he played it safe," it is usually not seen as a compliment. Many believe Kwan "played it safe" in 1998 and that's why Lipinski ended up with the OGM.

 

And is it the smart choice to make when you're known to be fabulously wealthy and have unlimited resources at your disposal to help you create exciting new Olympic-worthy programs? I do think more is expected of Yuzu than is expected of his fellow competitors.

 

As for how the judges will score Chopin 3.0, I doubt they will be influenced by scores he received for that program in the past. Within reason, judges can score skaters however they like. I just hope they won't be negatively influenced by someone of Yuzu's stature recycling a program for the third time.

Why it's safe when he will upgrade his layout? This is purely math. There's an interview just today with Kiss and Cry magazine in which he mentioned about challenging new layout in the SP. He certainly has something in his mind about the layout he will practice from July to October. And I am not shocked if 4lz belongs to that plan.

Judges can't give a certain program lower scores than before if the program is performed that well, or even better (with harder layout). And judges are not told to give some boring programs same lesser scores. People hating on Medvedeva's 911 LP didn't affect the judges to give her WR.

You seem to overestimate the judges too much. Even if they dislike the program, if he is consistent, they can not stop him.

They didn't like Hope and Legacy and still had to give him a WR (even though underscored) because everything he did was too good and must get above +2. 

1 minute ago, rozuyu said:

What an interesting discussion!

to provide a different perspective - it often stuns me how well pianists from other regions of the world are able to interpret Chopin pieces which contain hundreds of references to Polish folk music. To me, they are natural and something that I don't have to study, because I recognize these rhythms and tunes as they are part of my culture. Yet, the last winner of the Chopin competition, Seong Jin Cho of South Korea, interprets Chopin pieces that draw heavily on folk music with much more ease than many Polish pianists.

I would say Chopin is hard to interpret properly. For me it's harder than interpreting Bach or Vivaldi. I'm glad that Yuzuru skates to Ballade again because the choreography that Jeff did is a masterpiece. I'm also sure Shoma's Winter will evolve in time.

All classical music is difficult to interpret if you don't study it properly and love it. But Chopin is by far, very universally studied by classical musicians from all over the world. That's why it's not that difficult for Asian pianists to perform Chopin. Because they have so many precedents. Oh by the way, my old professor (well just had some small master classes with him to be honest)  was the first Asian to win Chopin piano competition, and he won all small prizes as well. I looked up his discography and mostly music from Romantic era, no baroque music lol... 

12 minutes ago, Aotoshiro said:

It's also a difference in word-view. I don't know much about Vivaldi besides absolute basics (baroque genius, violins! Cellos!),but I do know a little more on Chopin and yes, the emotions is what is pushing his music forward, especially when you take into consideration how much of a patriot he was, and how most of his pieces convey the fighting spirit (that's why, I guess, it fits Yuzu so well-Chopin was of a weak health, so he poured all of his might into music that served to preserve and support Polish cause, et cetera, et cetera, and Yuzu is basically embodiment of a lithe-but-mighty...)

I guess Shoma's team chose Winter because of the harsh conotations this season has, even in Vivaldi's piece, which supposedly fit Shoma's standard!glare (bby, you can do so much more...), But that expression doesn't feel like it will be enough to convey the Winter vibe...

Oh and Yuzuru is pretty much very like Chopin. Young prodigy going around the world at very young age, get lots of attention from ladies. Very patriotic even though he's far away from his country. Lol I hope Yuzuru won't get a much older girlfriend like Chopin did though.

Anyway, if we talk about great performance to Vivaldi, Patrick skating to 4 season didn't so that to me at all. The best Vivaldi interpretation, in my opinion, is from Carolina Kostner. It's her own culture after all. I love this so much. It's my most favorite from Vivaldi. 

1 minute ago, Fresca said:

 

I've seen some ballets performed to Baroque music like Balanchine's Square Dance. My impression of it is that Baroque music is very haughty, very grand and dramatic. You have to perform with that self-confidence and sense of command in your skating or else the music will look too big for you .

Well it depends on which baroque pieces though. If some skaters decided to skate to Bach's Mass in B Minor then good luck with that because it's toooooooo grandiose and religious it will eat you up. Or Haydn'a The Creation...

And frankly even smaller baroque music can be still difficult to get. It's just too long ago. Too disconnected. I remember some Russian ice dance team tried to skate to Handel's Sarabande and it was a major disappointment. 

However it would be nice if some skaters can skate to this: 

13 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think Vivaldi is underestimated by non-musicians, but every musician I've ever worked with knows how much he means in history of music (well, I have to say, specifically, I know a lot of violinists, so for us Vivaldi's been even more important! Baroque music is basically strings music!)

 

Who knows if judges have this sensibility to different degrees of depth of interpretation...

Maybe I have more friends who are pianists so they underestimate Vivaldi more. I have known 2 guys studying under Brendel for a while and they're like: "we didn't know we have to study baroque as well, we didn't sign up for this!!" 

Lol they're lucky Brendel isn't that investing in baroque as others. 

Back to the topic, yes I agree with you, I highly doubt that judges care much about Vivaldi's music is from Baroque era and that his style should be this or that. Classical musicians pay too much attention to these details but non-fans might never care. 

5 minutes ago, Katt said:

@meoima No no I'm just express my opinion about Shoma's SP in general, not to your insights. I agree with you alot. I don't know much about classical music, but as a casual listener, I always feel Bach and Vivaldi's music are a bit heavy for my taste ^^

I like both Bach and Vivaldi. But it's just me. Most of my friends don't.

By the way, I just did a check of the several well-known Asian classical musicians from past till present, like Kyung Wha Chung, Mitsuko Uchida, Dang Thai Son, Lang Lang, Yuja Wang... they don't have recordings of baroque era. Or even if they did play it a bit, they're still not being famous for it. Quite different from Hilary Hahn who was hailed as daughter of Bach from the age of 15. 

1 minute ago, LadyLou said:

RE Shoma SP: There were some parts I liked, expecially the last spin, while others left me more meh

I think he put a spin where I was expecting a step sequence, probably I'm still thinking of Lambiel's Four Seasons. I'm going to rewatch that one now maybe I just have to forget that to appreciate Shoma's more. I remember Patrick's Winter did not impressed me either.

I'm sure Shoma will grow (and please show us more than your default intense!stare, we know you can!!!) and maybe even choreo will be adjusted. There's still plenty of time.

But with Yuzu going classic too, I feel that comparison will be very very tough for everyone else.

 

Yuzuru does Chopin and Chopin is from Romantic era. The music that time is totally different from Baroque era like Vivaldi. The time difference is almost 200 years. 

I don't think anyone in classical music world will compare Chopin to Vivaldi because they're totally different like different music genres. Honestly different genres. 

3 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Ah, such wise words. Bach is so hard to understand, even for western musicians. I've had so many issues with Bach, every time I played it. Some pieces would intrigue me, touch me, but some other pieces would just be out of my league, from another world. And Bach is the 'difficult' Baroque, I'd say. Vivaldi is a more 'commercial' Baroque, so it gives off the impression to be easier to interpret. 

Imo, a music like Winter, exactly like all of the other Seasons, is built upon images. In fact, the sheets of the Four Seasons came with four poems, which gave very concrete images to the musical pieces. 
I've never played Winter, but I'm familiar with Summer. In the Summer, you find isolated image after image, a bird singing, two birds chasing one another, the breeze among the tree branches, the sun... then, suddently, delicate rain on the grass. Then, suddently, a lightning. The storm. And so on, and so on. (I'm talking about musical images, of course, that are explicited by the poem).

All of this to say that you need very concrete images in your head to skate to a music like Vivaldi's Winter to give it meaning, an interpretation that's not a spoof, a parody of the original. 

 

I don't trust Shoma or Shoma's team to think about this, though. I could be wrong, but I think his skating will be beautiful as you want, but vague, and, therefore, empty. 

Yes, Vivaldi was more about images. But he is still baroque and he is still famous for writing the same concerto for 600 times. Lol 

I think people tend to underestimate Vivaldi for some reason. Many of his less famous pieces are amazing. 

11 minutes ago, Katt said:

Shoma is a skater that need a long time to feel/own his programs. His Loco was empty and messy during summer but it got better as the season went. As for this SP, I think its still in early stage and need a lot of  touch in choreos, especially the stsq. I dont like the music cut but it could be worse. His expression is quite similar to his Loco, but he have alot of time to improve. Its still ice show. 

This is not my criticism towards Shoma. But it's my experience from being Asian in the classical music world that I grew up with. I did leave it years ago. But many of my friends are still there, studying in Germany, France, Russia, England. 

There is this tendency among them: These Asian musicians who didn't grow up in Western culture, no matter how much talented they are, or how much training they have, there are still something they can not get in some Western classical music pieces, especially those Baroque pieces. 

I never ever saw my Asian friends, either pianist or cellist or violinist did very well a musical piece by Bach. I mean... I went to competitions with them (lol the horror of classical music competition... even worse than skating competitions)... while they can try their best with some certain pieces to make their lack of cultural experience less glaring, it's still there. 

Even my professor who won a big international competition never show off his skills with Bach before us. 

However, they do tend to do well Mozart, Chopin, Debussy, Ravel... for some reason.

16 minutes ago, Xen said:

Yes, but the issue with the Vivaldi piece here, is that the Winter seems more suited for a long program. The way Winter was edited and choreographed, there was a spin where maybe a Step Sequence or a Choreo Sequence is more appropriate. But you don't really have room in a SP for that, so we ended up with a spin combo instead. In a free program, you might have that option. And there should have been more feet, circular footwork, but got more arms so eh...just me being picky since I like Vivaldi...

Since I am Asian, and I grew up with classical musicians so this is my take:

- If you're Asian growing up most of the time in Asia, it's not easy at all for you to interpret European classical music, especially those Baroque music from 400 years ago. It is something that has to do with your culture. Baroque music is rigid, flowy and tend to be religious. My friend studied at the biggest music conservatory in London once told me she was forced to give up on Bach for a while because she's not religious. Western students who are not religious can do it well. But they grew up with that culture. Meanwhile my friend didn't grow up with it, so it's harder for her to make it. This has nothing to do with racism or so. It's just different culture backgrounds. It's the same if some Western skaters suddenly chose some Asian music, I don't think they will interpret it well.

- The music of later era like Romantic era and post-Romantic were composed more about emotions with some storytelling and moments, thus it's easier for these music to become warhorse (like Carmen, Turandot, Rach 2, Tchaikovsky piano concerto no 1). 

- I don't think Patrick skating to baroque music was good interpretation either. But at least he did grow up in Western culture so it's still within a range.

- I am glad Yuzuru chose Chopin cause his music was from romantic era with more emotions and outburst of moments. The structure of the piece was set up with more freedom as well. 

9 minutes ago, Xen said:

Watched the Dailymotion video, and must say...there's a part of me that's really underwhelmed by Shoma's Winter...something's just off about the music and the step sequence bits...it's nice, still and I'm sure it'll evolve further. 

It's not just you. I have to say... classical music isn't that easy to skate to, especially those music from baroque era. Vivaldi is baroque by the way.

I don't see Asian skaters growing up in Asian do well with baroque. Because it's a total different background of culture. Unless you grow up with it. I only see Carolina Kostner did well with baroque because technically it's her own culture. You can watch Carolina skating to Vivaldi Lp last season, especially the one at European. It suits her.

I didn't find Mao's skating impressive when she skated to that cello suite. I like Mao, but that music didn't suit her at all. The baroque era is toooo long ago, like 400 years ago in Europe. Yes people say you can do anything on the baroque music because technically it can be a flow without end. But it can be boring and repetitive.

Music from romantic era like Chopin is less religious and more about emotions. So it suits Yuzuru.