meoima

I am watching the press conference and it's so hard to watch when Yuzuru had to hold up his tear during the question about his injury and condition. I wonder if this kind of conference is really good for him in general? I watch it and it drains my energy so much. I feel heart-broken. I know he's smiling happily in practice but still. Why not just wait for the Olympics to end to give the press conference? Or because the demands from Japanese media and public is too huge he has to give them some "news" and this is the result? I don't really know. Sorry I am being paranoid. I mean why just let him enjoy the Olympics without this huge attention for a while...

Can Korean fans enlighten us with some updates from Korean media about Yuzuru? I wonder what they are talking about him. Thank you very much in advance.

2 minutes ago, Floria said:

Yes

 

 

Thanks. I wonder if it's just a trip or a fall? Cause the camera was high so the video did not show if he really fell.

Did Yuzuru trip himself or fall after the press conference when he walked down the staircases? 

Do we have news about Yuzuru's practice already?

2 minutes ago, liv said:

I am sure he is glad he does not have to deal with all that!!! The pressure, frenzy, security, lack of freedom... no way javi wants that!!

No one wants that. 

And

1 hour ago, cinemacoconut said:

I am really upset at the amount of hate messages on Korean Websites about Yuzuru Hanyu. They are writing hate messages on his news saying that he has no skill and is just benifiting from his nationality and comparing him to Yuna Kim. I am very angry because they are saying that she is way better than him but because she was Korean she was scored lower.

It is absurd. And the more I read it the more stressed out I get. I am Korean but it is ridiculous why an olympic hosting nation has to be so racist against Japanese skaters. Please help me because I am nearly crying. There are thousands of hate messages directed at him on Daum. If you can help please use google translate and defend him on this website.

Don’t be sad. The people who write hate messages will not spend money to go to the Olympics arena and watch skaters. It’s expensive and crazily cold. They would rather stay at home and throw some hate on the website from their comfy seats. 

Yuzuru and all the skaters will never see those comments. Stay calm, things will be fine. 

1 minute ago, sweetwater said:

In Japanese, we can omit the subject and we can use hiragana and katakana quite freely. In a situation like this, our language itself is a troll   However, if Brian can say this to the press, English-based media will also report this soon, (hopefully with direct quotes), and even if they won't, we'll know what he'll do in about a week.

 

But If he has regained most of his jumps, that means he is getting quite well. I’m very happy to hear that.

I think if by now, as of early Feb, Yuzuru has regained most of his jumps aside from 4lz, then he will mostly not bring 4lz to the Olympics. It’s just a week anyway. They get to decide by now. I think it’s fine. His top priority is to skate clean. 

3 hours ago, micaelis said:

They probably should be thinking about the advisability of putting blades on their Zambonis to clear the ice.  I have noticed though in some recent competitions the flower people have had trash bags to put the stuff in rather than having to skate to the sidelines to get rid of what's in hand.  I don't think that will work with some of those Poohs I've seen in the past few seasons, where the Poohs have been the size of a large toddler.  I have a feeling there might be a lot of people watching just to see the size of the Poohvalanche.  A really good Poohvalanche is one of the great spectacles to see in figure skating and is indicative of Yuzu's fan base, a fan base greater than any skater has ever seen in previous years, at least in intensity.  Has any other skater been known to fill the stands just to see his practices?  You can be sure there will be many, many Yuzu fans in PC, many of them from Japan, of course, since Japan is so close to Korea - it means airline tickets will be cheaper.  But there will be many others from around the world.  It is the number and intensity of his fans worldwide that gives Yuzu rockstar status.

The Poohvalache might become the headlines of many top news agencies...

5 hours ago, Xen said:

I'm not sure if this is okay to say here?

When I look at some of the data on Shoma's SP, and then hear comments about his good knee bend, and his skating skills, there's a part of me that is slightly dissappointed that he doesn't do more, especially in the free program. It's a bit like...you know he's good and he's capable of it, but sometimes you feel like you're not actually seeing it in action? The winter SP steps, yes I see it has complexity, but why none of that in the free?

Personally, I'm liking his Loco Long from last season better than turandot this season. There's a certain sharpness, a bit of staccato breakage of his program in Loco (arms mostly) that made it more interesting; Turandot on the other hand is very "rounded", it's not punctuated by anything that makes me stand up and watch. Anyways, it's Olys and I don't expect anything drastic, but I hope for different programs in the future.

You might have noticed that aside from Yuzuru who has been MIA for most of the season, the top men actually have simplified their programs up to this point, judging from their outing. Some programs look even emptier than how they looked at the beginning of the season. 

About your comment... per my understanding, these guys have not improved their complexity despite having the potential to do it, is that a good and complex program takes time to gel with all the elements. They do not have enough time and not enough attention for that right now. Also, it takes time for the skater to improve their SS and speed. There is a reason why older skaters tend to improve their skating skills because they simply spend more time in... just skating around. Every skill needs time. Yes some skaters almost never improve their skills despite old age because of

1) wrong method of practice or

2) not enough motivation and not enough effort in changing the technique.

The issue is, most skaters get too hyped up with the race for Olympics, they know as long as they skate virtually clean, they're fine, and their coaches know that too. I mean everyone knows that but they go along with the way anyway.

Recently I rewatched Javi's performance at European and I was like: WHAT WHY HOW he got level 3-4 for most of his spin and step elements, because if you look at his performance in a deeper way, if he were not a top skater, he might just get level 1, 2 or even just a V sign for them. 

There is one thing I admire from Eteri group, is that even though Medvedeva and Zagitova do not fly on the ice, they do execute packed transitions and do not simplify them. Their programs are very rich in term of skating movements, unlike most of the top men.

I have to say, it is not biased to call Yuzuru as the only top guy who integrates top quality skating transitions with many quads in his program and they even match the music. And even though I am not a big fan of Yuzuru's NDP and Juliet 2.0 that he got from Davi Wilson, and I do think yes to some extent he did benefit from higher PCS than expect due to his huge jumps and being the only contender against Patrick, these 2 less favoured free skates are still very much PACKED with transitions and there was CLEAR effort in trying to improve the complexity of his skating by that time. I am glad Yuzuru NEVER simplified his complexity for the sake of instant PCS.  

2 hours ago, Neenah said:

I finally found this, been looking for since yesterday

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?53491-Measuring-Skater-Jump-Height

The post is old (2014) but it is a good example of how to do analysis. The poster explain their methodology, calculate the error ratio and clarify why it is there,  then they produce results based on it. The whole process is explained and can be replicated, which is what a true analysis looks like.

 

The result the article published are not the problem for me, but the lack of methodology is. The professor could be right, but without knowing what they studied exactly, it is impossible to verify those results which is why I cannot accept them. This has nothing to do with me being a Yuzuru fan, but everything to do with me being a researcher in STEM. I personally don't care how high Yuzu's jumps are. I like them because they are beautiful and effortless and their size is fine for me. I also have no problem with Shoma or any other skater's jumps since they are doing something I personally can't do and I have great respect for them.

 

Btw, my criticism in not directed toward the professor as I don't know if they wrote the article themselves or just did the research and someone else is reporting on it. Since I can't read Japanese there is a lot I could have missed and the professor could have done proper research but only the results made it to the media. I hope they clarify it soon because something like that is really bad for the reputation of any researcher and I do wish them the best. 

I remember that topic and the poster is very fair. Too bad he doesn’t count the current skaters anymore. 

Back to the “article”, not to be mean but Chykyo is not much of a famous research institution anyway. Chukyo university place 137th in Japan university ranking when it comes to research. Iron Klaus has showed that ranking on her twitter.

if it’s Waseda or Keio research we would say something. But it’s from a university which you have to scroll a lot (and this case it’s almost near the bottom) to see their name then... 

I remember Khoai’s university even has several researchers won Nobel prize and it’s definitely higher than Chukyo university. If this data were from somewhere like that I would have taken it more seriously. But nope, it’s from a place with not much prestige in researching with conflict of interest and the numbers don’t make sense so... 

I am no researcher but in my line of work I have to read and quote a lot of researchs. And no where I’ve seen such kind of research with dubious data. 

13 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

There is a commenter on this post that has a different opinion, actually. Anyone with physics knowledge who wants to comment on it? I'm curious now, because that poster says the math is correct if one assumes a perfect isolated system without friction of air and ice, and Yuzu's jumps just look bigger because he's taller so it's plausible that they might be only 48cm high to Shoma's 55cm. They think the rotational speed is actually the data that is wrong. 

There is a physics teacher on Twitter says the data that the professor at Chykyou university was wrong. If you want to ask her what's wrong about it then here: 

I talked to Perform - live and he showed me his data of the quads he collected. He also stated that the Japanese professor's data is unreliable. But since he used those numbers for his living I am not allowed to share what he told me here.

There is this one tiny data though I think I can share: in general, Yuzuru's quad (and 3A) can be longer than Shoma's quad (and 3A) around (almost) 77-80cm when it comes to ice coverage. 

In my opinion, that Japanese professor might indeed use some real data but the way he used the examples was selective for the following reason:

- The camera angles? Why no video/photo to show the camera angles and how they got the data? Look at what Perform-live do. he based his analysis on photos + video angle with certain error margin.

- The starts of the jumps were not counted the same time (certainly they count pre-rotation time for Shoma as airtime already)

- The jumps which were used were not the same type of jump with same quality (it's easy to pick out a bad jump from skater A to compare with a great jump from skater B)

- There is no indication of how many jumps they collect, no real standard of jump mechanism... DO YOU KNOW THAT AMONG ALL THE JUMPS, the LOOP HAS SLOWEST ROTATIONAL SPEED and LEAST ICE COVERAGE? That's why, with the same skater, the same number of rotation, the Loop will always be the smallest jump in general. And this is why -3lo combo is always fricking difficult. Now if you use one's Loop jump to compare to a Toe Loop jump to talk about which is bigger... you get the idea?

and YES to all of this below:

Quote

If you want me to accept your results you have to answer a lot of question, like for this particular case;  What is the data sample? What jumps are being studied? How many jumps were used as data points?Were the jumps chosen in the first or second half of the program? Why were these data points considered enough for a conclusion?  How was the data collected? Did they use videos or a special software? Did they record their own data or used someone else's? How was the height and rotation speed calculated? what methods were used? why were these methods used and not others? What is the error ratio? 

 

Anyway, since it's near Olympics I don't think there is anything new here. I think people should stop playing the political correct. What the professor at Chukyo University is doing is obvious for a reason: to boost his favorite and to talk down Yuzuru.

If that professor is fair, why he only chose Yuzuru and Shoma (and yet the article used Nathan's photo instead), there is NO indication of all the questions that @Neenah has mentioned above. If you're a serious and fair researcher you should show all of that to prove your point but NOPE there is NONE. Everything in that Asahi article was vague and questionable.

If you're fair and only want to count the numbers for the sake of it, look at the Russian blogger, he did his research on a huge scale. Whether his numbers were correct it is a different issue. It simply shows that he did not pick out any skater and he simply did the calculation for all the ladies as well. The way that Asahi news article was doing, sorry, is trying to make Yuzuru look worse and make their favorite look better with dubious data. There is no other explanation. 

I would rather trust people who have no bias /no relationships with the said skaters (Perform live guy has no relationship with the Japanese skaters, his clients are mostly European skaters), and the Russian blogger, his numbers might be questionable but he used the same scale on everyone. He is technically a nerd who used Mishin's method.

9 hours ago, LadyLou said:

RE: the unfamous article I know most has been already said, it has been said like hours ago, but now I have time to write my bit, so bear with me

 

So that article is saying:

skater A has bigger jumps than skater B, which means he has more airtime.

skater A rotates faster than B

Both are doing 4 rotations

if rotational speed = turns per second (or any other unit of time) = n°of rotation / airtime

it means that  

                               n°of rotation = airtime * speed

skater A is doing n°rotation = longer than B * bigger than B

so the same article is telling me skater A is be doing more rotation than B

 

Those two things just cannot coexist.

 

The End.

 

Of course there are many more issues that have been already mentioned, like the lack of info about the method and the sample chosen, and the choice of the sample itself. tbw, a one jump-sample isn't nearly enough to make any conclusive analysis. Not to mention that the numbers are joke.

If that "analysis" had been posted by a fan on a forum it would have been called a troll, because that's exactly what it is. But it was published by a supposedly trustworthy professional. Too bad "ipse dixit" doesn't work when you have numbers and evidence against you.
So, one of these two must be true: 1) this professor is a fraud and can't do his job and doesn't even know how to do his job (doubtful) or 2)he has 0 work ethics.

Either way, he should just be fired. If that's the kind of people who help Shoma with his jumps, I'm not surprised he has hard time getting better or that he needs to go to USA to have some serious jumping training.

I can't see any purpose in that kind of article if not to shade Yuzuru on a level that not even NA press has reached (or dreamed. Or maybe they dreamed of that, but couldn't find anything they could use). If even the US press couldn't jump in and criticize the quality of Yuzuru's elements (of any of his elements) and they only try and play the inconsistency card or at most "he has hard time keeping up with Nathan on quads" (or scoff at Pooh), you know any other criticism has not even the faintest basis, or they would been already attacking full force by now.

Just till yesterday I was thinking about how glad I was that jpn media were, after all, still supportive of Yuzu and not trying to force the rivalry with Shoma anymore, I was even feeling bad for having been so distrustful, but this is disheartening. And counter-productive, because Shoma, among the top 6 or 7 male skaters, happens to be the very one with the smallest jumps and more questionable technique (yes, Javi has some questionable take-offs himself, but he jumps big).
I understand that they want to support their skater, but why like this? Why don't they just trust their skater a little bit more? And actually help him to work on his weaknesses? without e.g. suggesting him self-harming temporary measures like moving the placement of his blades, that caused more strain on his joints and pain. 

I know Shoma has a great relationship with Miyoko and she seems a nice and kind lady, but I really wish he could change environment. I remember watching a documentary in july, where he talked about his blades, and there was this professor that said that they took care of Shoma to prevent injury and so on, and I felt still a bit doubtful but relieved that they were not overlooking anything and knew what they were doing, but now I have this terrible feeling that that professor was the same professor who gave that idiocy of an article to the press and I just want Shoma far, far away from him

 

 

On a side note, I'm not sure "height" of the skater is the main factor in how high skaters can jump (and how much air time they can achieve), but of course it can factor on e.g. rotation speed (and so the minumum air time they would need), if we talk about a skater like Caro vs one like Satoko, who is not only shorter but also way slimmer.

iirc it was mentioned (here?) that the fiber composition of your muscles counts a lot. It allows some people to get more "spring" on e.g. jumps, and iirc in part it can be modified with proper training but in part is also genetic (I don't remember where I've read this tho).

So there are short people who can jump big. Anastasia Tarakanova is listed at 1.52 m of height, Satoko at 1.49, so only 3 cm of difference. I would expect they could potentially jump quite the same, having almost the same height, but no, there is a huge difference in the height and ice coverage of their jumps. Same with Sasha Trusova, she is small and rotates fast but she doesn't jump as small as Satoko (she doesn't jump small at all). Rika Kihira is listed 1.52, too, and she manages to do a 3A and she isn't even as thin as Satton (meaning she probably can't rotate as fast), so obviously she needs to get much more air time and she does.

Mika is 1.67 m, which isn't the highest among men, but he jumps really really high. So imo it's still possible to make jump comparisons among skaters with different body type. Tho the "visual impact" can be very different depending on body type, of course. Am I explaining myself?

Of course, body type (meaning height but imo most important shape and...let's call it "radius") has an obvious mathematical correlation with rotational speed. The thinner the axis, the faster the rotation. About that there's nothing much skaters can do, if they are already fit (and obviously athletes are fit, it's not like they can lose some fat here or there and reduce their "radius"). So it isn't surprising that Satoko, being so "small" (in radius, an in weight too) can rotate really fast. Faster, for example, than Wakaba that has a completely different body. But it's because of their muscles and bone structure e.g. width of hips (you can't make your hips shorter, they're just the minimum radius you'll have and you have to work with that).

 

 

 

This blog post said similar thing http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/169861159069/have-you-seen-asahi-news-published-data-of-a

7 hours ago, Katt said:

My point is, one can have bigger jump with faster rotation speed but only if you compare them with skater have similar size of jumps. I think Yuzuru has bigger 4S than Javi, and of course Yuzuru rotates faster but the difference is really small. Now if someone say Nathan and Shoma rotate faster but also jump bigger than Yuzuru and Javi, I would roll my eyes. 

 

2

It is relevant to compare if the skaters have similar BODY SIZES. 

For example, Polina's jumps are surely among the biggest in ladies but she is also among the tallest ladies. So it makes sense to compare her jumps to tallest ladies like Carolina Kostner and Maria Sotskova (same body type). 

Liza's jumps are surely among the biggest but we should take into account she is quite a small lady, much smaller than Polina. Her huge jumps + pure technique make it actually more impressive in this view. 

Jumps, height, speed... have a lot to do with the body type. So for someone like Polina to have huge jumps, it's inevitable she rotates slower than Satoko (who jumps smaller) as Polina has more power in her legs, but also it is inevitable for Satoko to rotate faster than Polina as Satoko’s body is tiny. 

Yagudin's jumps might be the biggest ever in male skating. But his rotational speed was not as fast as Plushenko because their body types were very different. At their prime, Yagudin was a powerhouse type of jumper while Plushenko was more of a faster rotator. 

If they compare Yuzuru + Nathan or Boyang who have similar body type and height, it would have made more sense. But they have to compare Yuzuru to someone who is quite smaller with dubious numbers, that's why their numbers speak BIAS and WRONG. 

Think of Polina vs Satoko. It is impossible for Satoko to jump bigger than Polina, also impossible for Polina to rotate faster or as fast as Satoko. Because it's their body type. 

That's why it is pretty much illogical, if in a quad (4 rotation) for a skater who is QUITE SMALLER than Yuzuru to jump higher, bigger and rotate faster than Yuzuru especially in the same jump.

If you find anyone who is SMALLER than Yuzuru, jump BIGGER than Yuzuru, stay on air LONGER than Yuzuru with more ice coverage, that person might be landing a QUINT. 

This is not about Yuzuru vs anyone, I will just react the same if someone says Marin Honda jump bigger than Polina. It is just pure common sense for a normal skating fan to point out how wrong this kind of "data" is. 

11 minutes ago, Katt said:

My point is, one can have bigger jump with faster rotation speed but only if you compare them with skater have similar size of jumps. I think Yuzuru has bigger 4S than Javi, and of course Yuzuru rotates faster but the difference is really small. Now if someone say Nathan and Shoma rotate faster but also jump bigger than Yuzuru and Javi, I would roll my eyes. 

 

I mean even if you don't watch live, the jumps in video are good indication of how big someone's jumps are. Unless they're desperately trying to spread the wrong data...

3 minutes ago, Katt said:

I can't math but I think this is some kind of basic logic ? i mean, height and distance may not due to rotation speed only, its take off, air positions and other things, like I think Liza Tuk can jump bigger lutz than Polina's with faster rotation speed, but the difference may really small. I don't know why one can see Yuzuru's jumps in video (not even fancam) and say his quads are only 44 cm, and claim it is his best one 

 

I dont know how legit the russian analysis is, but I think Perform live is a quite reliable source. At least I know what kind of method and jumps they used, not just random data without any reference. 

Technically, Polina's jumps are among the biggest in size, even bigger than Liza but Liza's technique is much purer and more effortless. The difference is really small though.

Yes I am chatting with Perform Live and he agrees that data by the Japanese "professor" is absurd. 

5 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

The Russian blogger analysis also has some issues but they do have Shoma's 4S at 44cm. *shrug*

Pre-rotation, remember? 

Anyway I do not trust that the Russian blogger did well with his calculation. 

Now look at this guy who calculated TecShoma's "4F". Shoma's 4F and 3F technically have same airtime 

http://perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/164-how-to-do-a-quad-flip-by-shoma-uno-japan.html

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

So Yuzu's best quad last season was only 48cm high to Shoma's 55cm best? I.... I give up. Whoever did this math obviously used Yuzu's downgraded 4Lo from SC or something... 

Yuzuru's weak 4lz (with a weak landing) at CoR was 69 cm in height: 

I assure you, this guy (who made this video) does sport video analysis as a living.

Carolina Kostner and Mishin pay him to help with her training.

So he is very serious about all of his data. He records, collects and saves data of all skaters from novice to senior. I would rather trust this guy than that "professor". 

6 minutes ago, Katt said:

How can someone have better height and distance and faster rotation at the same time ? Its like saying Polina Tsurskaya has Satoko's rotation speed, is that possible ?

 

This is not the first time JPN media try to make Yuzuru look worse, I dont know why they do this but these kind of comparison doesn't do Shoma any favor either. 

5

Yeap by this logic Polina already lands fully rotated quads, and Uno has fully rotated QUINT. 

I mean it's MATH!!! It's PURE MATH people! It's like saying Yagudin's huge jumps with Boyang's rotational speed. It's a QUINT already lol.

New interview I think http://www.fujingaho.jp/lifestyle/hanyuyuzuru_171228

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

And they thought there were a lot of borderline UR from both Nathan and Shoma in GPF that weren't called

 

Also, Max would pick Nathan over Shoma on SS... and Angelo said, yes yes, it’s legitimate. Now I’d really like to know more about this  I though Shoma was still better, on SS (and TR) that he displays in his competitive programs (tho I think Nathan has gorgeous SS in his EX) and people keep saying that Shoma's SS is on par with Patrick's, so....

Angelo also said Nathan has some interesting choreo and is working on that. At the moment he’s maybe the most complete US skater against those who lacks quads (like Rippon and Brown) and skaters with quads but very bad in components (Zhou, I guess Aaron too). Still his TR score was way too high for what he did.

6

(1) Most quads that Nathan and Shoma did at GPF were not just borderline, they were outright UR

(2) SS: Shoma >>>> Nathan, TR: both of them weak

(3) Nathan + "gorgeous SS" = incomprehensible

(4) Saying Shoma's SS = Patrick's is an insult. Patrick uses like half of the crossovers Shoma does.

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Nope, that's the problem. It's 4CC or nothing and yes, it is too close.

 

For Yuzuru, definitely too close. We're talking Jan 22-27 here and considering how he is, that is too close unless they drop the Team Event for him. He'd have just about enough time then but on the other hand, he himself may not want that, even if JSF is all right with it, which is another question. 

Yeah I think 4CC and no team event might be most suitable. But again TCC might have come up with some better options. I have faith Yuzuru will be fine by Olympics.

8 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

No use borrowing trouble. Just trust it's how they say it is, and it is really good he's taking care of his health much more than ever before. He would have skated right through this in the earlier years, but not now. So it's already better than we could have hoped for! Cross everything, knock on everything and it's going to be ok. 

Do we have other competitions before Olympic aside from 4CC? I have heard many people complain 4CC is too close to the Olympics.