Nuitsuki

May I ask why? Is it because of me

*put metal armour on* *take a deep breath* Alright guys, I've done my part. Warning: it's very different from the ISU results. Firstly, disclamer: I do apply the 'weak take off' deduction for lutz and flip. While I agree that jumps have a certain degree of natural prerotation, flip and lutz have the least prerotation tendency among all. Also, I do think full blade toe pick can be detected in real time. I've compiled some jumps for illustration. No effect added, slow motion footage was from the original video and I didn't do anything with them. In real time: Comparing 3flip of Alina and Marin, you can see that the direction which Marin pointed her toe pick towards indicates prerotation, and you can actually see the moment when ~2/3 of her blade touched the ice. While Alina also prerotated 3Flip, her toe pick was quite neat and fast. In slow motion, I freezed the frame right before they take off. Marin already rotated on the ice over 180 degree, while Alina was just around that benchmark. That is to say, Marin did prerotate more on 3F than Alina, at least in the short program, ang my eyes do not fail to detect that. However, it could be argue that because Marin did 3F3T, she needed more leverage, hence she pressed the blade harder than Alina who did solo 3F. To justify this point, I included Alina's 3Lz in her combo. In this case you can see clearly with normal speed that she pressed her toe pick harder and it became later full blade before she left the ice. Similarly with Evgenia, you can detect full blade toe pick on 3flip in real time. So my answer is that, for flip and lutz jumps, I'd give weak take off deduction to people who use blade to pick because (1) it's recognisable in real time, (2) using blade goes against the mechanism of toe jumps. In this case, I'd given deduction to Marin's 3Flip, Alina's 3Lz (but she fell on the combo so maximum -3 deduction is already given), and Evgenia's 3F. Now, in edge jumps, I said earlier that deduction should applied for who prerotates over 180 on ice. However, after watching 3Lo from Marin, Sakoto and Evgenia, I have to admit that it is nearly impossible to tell among them, who prerotates over 180 degree in normal speed. So I give up that idea. Obviously, this is just my personal thoughts. But I want to make the standard as clear as possible. I didn't mention toe loop because so many skaters prerotate the toe loop in combo, and some of them prerotate on toe pick which is hard to caught, and given toe loop also has big natural prerotation on itself, I'd just give it a pass. Alright, back to the individual scoring. I'd like to share how I grade GOE bullets here, please correct me if I was wrong Alina Z. Marin H. Liza Tuk Wakaba Elena R. Gabrielle D. Mai M.

Ahhhh sorry I’m causing confusion again I was talking about turns in general, not saying that I’ve seen many hopped turns at CoC. Especially with rockers and counters, I’m only able to notice their presence in normal speed, but I can’t even tell the type of turns without super slow motion and drawing draft, let alone their quality. So I kinda curious how tech panel can suspect a turn during stsq and judge the level? Yuzu’s stsq in SEIMEI at Olympics was given greenlight first, then they marked yellow light for review after he finished, so I think the tech panel may have spotted sth off and wanted to review. ETA: edit to rephrase

@Murieleirum i blame Alina for her crazy transitions I’m trying to read at least the steps/turns for entry and exit. Also when slowing down to read those, I have more time to observe the edges. I’ve never been a fan of Alina’s skating, but it is undeniable that her programs were the most difficult and taxing among ladies. @robin if you’ve found out the tricks, do you mind posting step-by-step construction? I think many people would need it for later. ETA: yayyy thank you

It took me 20 mins to judge Alina Hope I'd improve gradually and be faster Quich question: can you guys notice when a skater 'hop' on the turns? especially counter and rocker? How to see it in normal speed

@Raomina Thank you so much for the app and additional functions. I'm judging now, feel so cool haha Is there a deadline for judges?

@hoodie axel in slow motion 0.25x, to me Marin’s 3F looked PR over 180 degree, while Gabby’s 3T-3T was just at 180 degree. Also, Marin’s blade touched the ice more, it was around 2/3 of her blade. in real life, the way Marin’s toe pick strikes on ice looks weird. The direction she points her toe pick and the way her upper body starts to rotate before toe pick touches the ice makes her jump looked unpleasing and weak imo. Frankly her 3T in the 3F3T combo looks better to me in terms of take off. @Murieleirum I understand, but doesn’t “weak take off” only deduct 1 to 2 in GOE? And its not like i gonna give it to all the jumps. Also, the highest and lowest goe wouldn’t count. If the GOE i give is lowest, it would be thrown away and wouldn’t affect final score anyway. But if someone gives similar GOE as me, then I wouldn’t say I am overly strict. ETA: maybe wait until we finish the 1st round judging. I’ll show how i grade jumps over here, then we can discuss more. Also see if I could affect final score, or final standing

@hoodie axel I wouldn’t deduct Gabby’s combo for weak take off though. Marin’s 3F, for example, would be punished.

@Xen for toe jumps PR is usually accompanied with full-blade toe pick, so i still argue that this kind of technique on toe jumps should get deduction. Edge jumps I’d say that PR over 180 degree should definitely get deduction.

oops seems like I have caused a bit confusion I try to explain more. What I think is, when a jump meets the most basic requirements (correct edge, minimal PR, correct toe pick, etc.), it earns the BV. Any jumps that fail to adhere to minimum requirements should get deduction. ISU rewards skaters for "good height and distance" "good extension on landing" etc., but there is no reward for clean and solid take off, because it is the basic requirement of a jump. Then who fails to meet that requirement should get deduction. It should be in BV, that's why tech panel can downgrade jump that PR over 180 degree on ice. However, with the current condition that rule is totally ignored. Therefore, as a judge who can see a not-ideal take off in real time, I think I should apply "bad take off" deduction. It may not originally created to punish PR, as @Xen thought it is for the depth of edge in lutz jump, but the rules don't explicitly say it must be used only for lutz jump, so it is up for judges' interpretation. For example, taking a rotated 3lo from Sakoto and Kaori. Do not take into account things that are rewarded in GOE like preceding steps/diff. entry exit, etc. Just watch them do a normal 3lo, you see there's difference in terms of quality: Kaori has minimal PR, solid take off. However she would receive the same score Sakoto (again, I'm not yet talking about GOE). Is it fair? I don't think so. Similarly, transitions aside, can you give Alina's 3lz the same score as Yuna's? No. Because her technique is flawed, and because Yuna is not rewarded for correct technique, then Alina should get deduction. The difference is there and score should reflect it. Now if we consider GOE, using Sakoto's and Kaori's 3lo in their SP for example (assume they are both rotated,), I judge like this: Sakoto: bullets 2, 5, 6, 7 => +2 GOE. -1 to -2 for poor take off => 0 to +1 GOE. Kaori: bullets 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 => +3 GOE. What do you guys think? Am I using the rules correctly?

I know, but it’s so unfair if you think like this: a rotated 3lo from Marin or Sakoto receive equal BV as someone’s 3lo like Kaori who has less PR, in-air rotation and looks much more solid in take off It is so frustrating. The difference in quality is there, PR are quite noticeable in real time I’d say for skaters like Marin, Sakoto and Shoma. Kaetlyn and Gabby also prerotate their jumps, but not as obvious as them. As a judge I do think I have to point out the difference.

all the PR jumps you guys mentioned would receive bad take off deduction from me

Kêu gọi nhanh: đồng chí nào stream CiONTU thì hú nhé, vào gr chat chung cho vui!

Oops, silly me

@robin Ah thanks for explaining but how can I see the work of TP? Because I open the app, go to the GP CoC 2017 ladies event but nothing is there yet

I’m still confused The TP work with jumps and levels first, then judges give out GOEs and PCS right? So i need to enter manually elements and the calls on the app then do my part? Or is there a way to import the work of TP to the app then I just need to continue from there? Sorry guys, I’m slow on technology

Am I the only one who gonna apply deduction for 'bad take off'? (In this case: full blade toe pick). This channel usually upload whole group instead of individual performance: https://www.youtube.com/user/reginahwang They also upload group 2 SP COC (with Mai and Alina from gr 1):

@hoodie axel hm interesting, I didn’t think about that before. I’ll rewatch her programs to check. Package-wise, i think Eteri team did amazing work to cover up the weaknesses of her skaters. So kudos for the team for that. The thing is, i judge based on what her skaters are able to put on the table, not what i think her skaters aren’t unable to do hypothetically. If their weaknesses aren’t apparent, or well-covered to my amateur eyes, i might give them a pass. Same apply with other skaters. And no, you’re absolutely fine it’s just i’m a bit conservative and awkward around people i just met. So what are your thoughts? Would love to hear more from you guys!

@hoodie axel as I said, I’ll give Med 9-9.25 only when she is at her best. Yes she is slow, but it’s hard to be fast when you have more transitions than the rest. Yes, her knees are stiff and her free leg swingging annoys me to hell, but i don’t think she hops on turns. I find her turns, while not lovely, were carefully completed and the curves are recognisable. Regarding Alina, with an exception of WC FS this year, personally i can’t give lower than 8 for her programs. The amount of transitions are crazy. But i understand that we have different values, and as I said, I’m very much of an amateur. Maybe after watching enough of skating or reading more discussions, I may start noticing things I didn’t pay attention before that’s why i sign up as side judge for the 1st round.

I have to admit that i am more comfortable with men skating since I watch it more, also because Yuzu and Patrick are gold standards to assess the rest. Ladies I am not confident, so I'm very open to discussion here (I feel like I gonna be thrown tomatoes and eggs for this, please nice to me guys): - 9 to 9.25: Carolina K., Sakoto M., Kaetlyn O. Good speed, good knee actions, very good edge control, huge ice coverage, very good flow. Caro is kinda hard to say since she does a lot of long gliding, and while it's beautiful, I still love to see more skating content in her programs. Zhenya can be in this group too when she is at her best, but it's because that she has tons of transitions which are part of multidirectional skating and one foot skating. Otherwise, I'd enjoy effortless and natural skating more than laboured and unmatched to the music transitions. - 8 to 9: Marin H., Mai M., Wakaba H., Kaori S., Alina Z., Karen C., Yuna S. These skaters have all their strength and areas that need improvement, but generally: speed (Wakaba, Kaori), flow (most of them, but Alina is a bit behind in this section, and Karen really needs to improve her jumps), edge control (Mai, Karen, Marin), one-foot skating and multidirectional skating (Alina is superior in quantity but kinda behind in quality). This group has a big room for judging because i don't think any of them is particularly better than the rest. So i'll just decide depending on their performances. -7.5 to 8.5: Maria S., Bradie T., Mirai N.

@robin haha my method is cruel to the eyes Seriously, Boyang has improved a lot compared to CoC. You can see how his turns back then were kinda scratchy, and his loop turn was particularly meh to me (no idea why tbh). Maybe because he was injured at that time too. Check out the entry for Yuzu’s 3A combo in seimei pyeongchang: outside SE - inside IB - 3turn sequence (rotating clockwise into an counterclockwise jump, which adds extra difficulty) - 3Alo3S. No speed lost, absolutely smooth and undisrupted, huge ice coverage, yet no +3 GOE

But Yuzu’s 3turn seq is so fast Like the 3turn seq entry for 3F, and for 3A2T combo in seimei 1.0 (3A-lo-3S for seimei Olympics), they look like mini twizzles thanks for sharing tho, i think i need to watch more. It takes time to identify those moves, and it’ll even take more time to tell their quality.

@Xen i still struggle with those two every time i question whether the turn is rocker or counter, i have to watch it multiple times then draw it on paper. (This sounds stupid but i can’t tell twizzles apart from 3turn sequence. They look so similar to me )

Wow I didn’t realise until you say it. It’s hard for me though, since skaters do many change of direction during the program, i might need to watch the 3rd time with reduced speed like 0.5x to notice them but that’s what needed to gain more experience, so... @robin try this video the video cut for each skater includes their mandatory combo turns in stsq. I watch it like 10-20 times then i start noticing the difference in knee actions, speed, precision of footwork and agility.

@Xen thank you for explanation! I agree with you mostly, but also have some things to share: - i agree with the range you’ve given, but only when skaters performed at their best. For example, I won’t give Nathan higher than 7- 7.5 for SS and TR for his FS at Milan. Most of what he did were crossovers, he didn’t show multidirectional skating so i dock off some points. - Shoma is a hard case for me too. Smooth skating, good knee action, but sometimes i notice that his turns weren’t executed well. Especially for the turns going into jumps, he tends to performed them in flat edge, and sometimes the curves were unreadable (this could be because of my poorly trained eyes, but i saw other ppl discussed about this too). I’d give him 8.5 to 9 depending on his condition. And i won’t give him more than 9 for his past performances, for the same reason with you: 9-9.25 is for JBrown who has similar quality but superior in quantity of one-foot skating and multi directional skating. What do you think?