Cultural Differences

[Pammi]

On 12/15/2019 at 7:41 PM, mambook said:

The Japanese auntie I talked to

Sorry, it's sort of off topic (and its a very interesting topic that's being discussed!) Firstly, this is not at all directed at the poster that I have quoted as I notice many satellites do the same on this forum, and have done for a long long time - it's hard to challenge something that has been accepted practice for a long time, but many people in history have done just this to bring about much needed change, so......I'm going to be brave!!

Could I please ask satellites to think about the words used to describe middle aged or older women -  often on here I see women being called "aunties" or even "grandmas" as if we are defined only by our age (and by our relationship to others, not who we are as individuals) . I do find it a bit offensive, although I am certain that nobody uses the terms deliberately to offend.  We wouldn't dream of doing this to other groups of people, i.e. calling them a "name" on the basis of, say, their sexuality, or their ethnic origin, or their religion, or their disability.  The names themselves don't have to be things we find offensive (of course there is nothing wrong with being an auntie to nieces and nephews, or a grandmother to grandchildren), but to call someone "a grandma" when she is an older woman watching figure skating with no knowledge of whether she actually is a grandma and when the name has no relevance to her activity, then I feel it is akin to calling someone "a gay" when a person is out having a swim in the sea, or "a disabled" when a person is reading a book in a library! We just wouldn't do that! We wouldnt define someone by their sexuality or by their disability. That's how it feels to me - I would be labelled "an auntie" whilst attending the grand prix final, even though I am not an auntie, I dont wish to be defined by how old I might be or look, and it has nothing to do with my activity or interest!! I would rather be called a fan, or a supporter, a figure skating expert (lol) or even a fangirl!! (fanwoman would be my preference though  !)

Terminology can be controversial, but we know not to use derogatory terms for people of colour, for disabled people, for people who are LGBT, for people who are a different religion to ourselves, as well as many other groups - please think about how long we have been fighting oppressive attitudes to women (especially older women - think of hag, old bag, old witch) and how terminology can reinforce negative attitudes. I hope I have not offended anyone with this post through my own ignorance, e.g. I think Japanese fans might use the term aunties for older women - I understand that in Japan age and experience are respected characteristics, whereas in the West it is youth that tends to be more highly valued -- and that some of us may have picked up this term "auntie" from  Japanese fans.  As a western woman, from a culture where age and experience is definitely not respected, I am sure I will not be the only more mature woman who objects to these terms being used to describe me as a fan of figure skating (not seen it used for anything else, have you?) 

(When I see Brian Tracy and Ghislain being called Mama and Papa to their students, it feels different, as they ARE in the role of teaching and guiding their young charges, and the nurture and care they give to them are much like a parent would! Plus parents can be any age and of any gender!) - gosh, it gets so complicated doesnt it?!

I hope this post is taken in the spirit of friendly challenge that it is intended.  We are always learning - sometimes we agree with one another, sometimes we dont - but respect for others is always a wonderful value, and I hope that this post maybe gives you some food for thought, even if you end up thinking I am making a fuss about nothing!

Thanks to you all for reading my post!

[Ladysci]

I agree! I'm somewhat having a reverse cultural shock right now, having returned to Japan recently after living in the UK for quite sometime. Unless it’s your family (nieces, nephews), your kids’ friends, or joking around with your friends, being called an obasan ( ‘auntie’) is not a compliment in Japan; it has it’s negative connotations about being a middle-aged woman, just like in western countries.  It's different if the Japanese fans themselves called themselves aunties, since they are all a "group of fans", at least having something in common.  Middle aged can be over 30 here though 🤣. Although, respect for older people was more a traditional trait in Asia, it much less so now than before. This is good and bad: you should feel free to disagree with your elders, but there always should be respect. However, I’m optimistic that the Satellites don’t mean anything negative when they call people aunties in our posts in this group.

[Pammi]

19 hours ago, Ladysci said:

being called an obasan ( ‘auntie’) is not a compliment in Japan; it has it’s negative connotations about being a middle-aged woman, just like in western countries

Thank you for this, I am very interested to know about Japanese customs and traditions and how they are changing - interestingly I remember my Irish father telling me I was middle aged when I turned 33 years!!! I wish I was still that middle aged!!

I have read and heard about how conservative attitudes can still be towards women generally in Japan and how women (maybe supported by some men?? please?) are making the argument for greater freedoms and starting to assert their rights to these freedoms as equal human beings deserving of opportunity, respect, safety, and being treated equitably. For example I was reading about expectations in office culture that women should/must wear high heals to work and should not/must not wear their glasses, as flat shoes and glasses are not "feminine", and how some women are making a stand against this.  (Yuzuru you are influential in Japan, and a trailblazer, and I know Shizuka is interested in women's issues and a great influence on you so together you could make some waves!!  Seriously though, I don't mean to put even more pressure on Yuzuru, he has enough!! He cannot singlehandedly right all the wrongs in the world, can he!??  Discuss! .) 

The small steps we take are always important in my view, and terminology (for me anyway) is always a good indicator of where we are at as a society in the treatment of different groups of people, and therefore is a good a place as any to start when trying to change attitudes. 

I totally agree that no satellite will have used these terms with the intention of offending or hurting anybody! Yuzuru's fans are characterised by being so kind, generous, and supportive of each other!

As this is maybe if anyone is wanting to comment further we should move this to a more appropriate thread? Not sure which one though! 

[Ladysci]

8 hours ago, Pammi said:

Thank you for this, I am very interested to know about Japanese customs and traditions and how they are changing - interestingly I remember my Irish father telling me I was middle aged when I turned 33 years!!! I wish I was still that middle aged!!

I have read and heard about how conservative attitudes can still be towards women generally in Japan and how women (maybe supported by some men?? please?) are making the argument for greater freedoms and starting to assert their rights to these freedoms as equal human beings deserving of opportunity, respect, safety, and being treated equitably. For example I was reading about expectations in office culture that women should/must wear high heals to work and should not/must not wear their glasses, as flat shoes and glasses are not "feminine", and how some women are making a stand against this.  (Yuzuru you are influential in Japan, and a trailblazer, and I know Shizuka is interested in women's issues and a great influence on you so together you could make some waves!!  Seriously though, I don't mean to put even more pressure on Yuzuru, he has enough!! He cannot singlehandedly right all the wrongs in the world, can he!??  Discuss! .) 

The small steps we take are always important in my view, and terminology (for me anyway) is always a good indicator of where we are at as a society in the treatment of different groups of people, and therefore is a good a place as any to start when trying to change attitudes. 

I totally agree that no satellite will have used these terms with the intention of offending or hurting anybody! Yuzuru's fans are characterised by being so kind, generous, and supportive of each other!

As this is maybe if anyone is wanting to comment further we should move this to a more appropriate thread? Not sure which one though! 

Good idea, how do we move our posts about auntie-dom to another thread?  Perhaps one of the moderators could kindly help us, since this is quite off topic , even though its about Asian (particularly Japan) and western cultures and their views on "older women".  I'd love to discuss my perspective, although being an academic means I don't really live in the real world part of the time .  It's loosely about Yuzu, since we all hope to develop a society where most of the guys are sensitive, caring, and think before speaking, which he seems to be. 

[sallycinnamon]

I made this thread re the discussion in the GPF thread about the cultural differences and the views about older women (the previous posts have been moved to this topic).

Feel free to continue the discussion here or talk about other differences as well  

 

 

[Ladysci]

4 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

I made this thread re the discussion in the GPF thread about the cultural differences and the views about older women (the previous posts have been moved to this topic).

Feel free to continue the discussion here or talk about other differences as well  

 

 

Thanks for setting up this thread and moving our posts over here.  Will be back to post later on .

[memae]

This is an interesting topic.

 

Where I'm from, and in other similar areas with similar demographic in Australia, Auntie and Uncle are respectful terms for someone about a generation or two older than you. I'd say across Australia we commonly call our parents' friends Auntie and Uncle but maybe not strangers, depending on your community and the cultural group a person belongs to. At the school I work at,  for example, it's normal practice to call First Nations staff who are older than you (whether you're staff or a student) Auntie or Uncle, but not any of the staff who aren't FN. Even around town, with strangers, it's the same. Much of the west is very individualistic in culture and we define relationships much more personally (e.g.: calling someone 'auntie' to define their relationship to me) but in collectivist cultures there's more tendency for relationships to be defined by one's place in the community (e.g.: calling someone 'auntie' because my age/status/etc in relation to theirs means I need to show them respect, etc). 

 

 I think in the talk of the 'Japanese aunties' the term is endearing and used from a place of respect, as well as in recognition of their kindness. The delight they so often have in having conversations with other fans and the little gifts they give out is very reminiscent of the behaviour of an aunt (whether an actual aunt or your mum's friend) as per western culture. I don't think the use of 'auntie' here is as simple as being about age. 

 

ETA: It's also not as simple as being a matter of 'western culture' because there are, obviously, lots of cultures that fall under that term with lots of variation in how we address or refer to people politely. For example, I know that 'ma'am' is respectful in some Englishes as a way of addressing a woman but to me, and perhaps to other Australians, it has the feel of being a term for old women whereas 'miss' does not have a connotation of age (or even marital status in the way that we use it - we always say 'excuse me miss' rather than 'Mrs', even if the woman in question is 70 years old and married).