What does Nathan Chen's 'retirement' mean for Yuzu?

[ImmortalBeloved]

I saw this Youtube video about Nathan Chen taking a few years off from competitive skating. Do you think this would affect Yuzu's plans in any way, for example : maybe Yuzu would work towards competing in the next Olympics still? 

 

[EisElle]

gonna be honest: I don't think NC's plans (already pretty known since PyeongChang, tbh) would weigh much on Yuzuru's decision.

I think no one who has been following N (or even just keeping up with the news) would be surprised by this decision, so it woudln't come as a shock to Yuzuru, either.

 

In terms of push from fellow competitors and being inspired by them, that has long ago not really been Yuzuru's main motivation. Already post PyeongChang, but even more after 2019-20. You could see this in the layout choices he did, still highly competitive cuz not everyone cna do 6 quads and 3 3As across SP and FS, but not designed to maximize BV.

What Yuzuru always praised of Nate is his ability to land difficult jumps, with remarkable consistency (tho in truth only relatively to the field, not in absolute), but their skating philosophy couldn't be more different. In terms of "mere" jump layout difficulty, there's many younger skaters who're gonna keep the technical race challenging with or without Nate.

 

In terms of people he knows leaving the competitive scene (temporarily or not) I believe people like Ryuju Hino, Keiji Tanaka and even Satoko retiring actually would make Yuzuru feel "his age" a lot more than any other skater. JavierF retiring back when it happened was certainly hard, since they had been training alongside for many years, other than meeting in comps. But even more so than back then, now there are many skaters Yuzu has known for 10years or more who are leaving or taking a break (see also S/H, who, like him, won JWC 2010). Ryuju and Keiji belong to Yuzuru's own generation, he grew up with them, and he's still close enough to them to have talked about a post-retirement trip together.  Satton is younger (as old as Shoma, who instead said he'll keep competing) but she's been top Jpn skater for a long time together with him and someone he got along well in those years, he acted like some kind of big bro to her (and Shoma), so seeing her retire too maybe would make him pause and think "am I the only one left?"

Still, quite a number of skaters he's competed alongside for as long or longer than NC said they want to keep competing: Shoma, Boyang, MishaK and Jason (both actually as old as him)...

 

Finally, in terms of hopes for fair scoring, it's not gonna change much.

USFSA is already pushing Ilia like crazy. Current Jpn Men's field is again highly competitive internationally, and there are not one but two Jpn skaters that are being scored in his range both in TES and PCS for worse jumps and emptier programs.

Even in terms of leaving Jpn FS "in good hands", Shoma+Yuma are currently solid, plus there's a whole younger generation that he has been watching (and rooting for) pretty closely, some with potential to catch up in TES (their PCS won't, probably, cuz JSF already has two faves). He could leave feeling that TJ will keep thriving.

 

 

What IMO most likely will determine Yuzuru's choice, in order of importance

 

1) health: the condition of his ankle, and in general his whole body. 27years and 12 skating in senior, doing multiquad programs for >10years and 4quad FS programs since 2016-17. The toll on his body must be a lot, and his right ankle in particular is especially prone to reinjury. The pain and frustration of working hard and then being stopped again and again must be hard not only physically but mentally too

 

2) competitive spirit: is it still burning or is he struggling to find motivation for the sacrifice that competing requires? He said he'd like, once healthy (when, if) to try 4A again. There are few people who love competing as much as Yuzuru, but it has been hard, COR18, Saitama, whole 2019-20, training in solitude, Stockholm, pulling out of NHK21, all of that has been so hard. Beijing has been hard.

Only he knows whether it would still be worth all of that, untimely injuries and accidents, and knowing his kind of skating is not what is being rewarded right now.

He studies the sport and knows that better than anyone else, and getting some kind of acknwledgment for his work from the people in charge of his sport still matters for him, even if he may have changed his priorities (or been forced to change them). ISU, certain media, too many in the FS community, in his own country included, have been pretty relentlessly trying to erasure him and what he stands for. Competing while knowing no one around you actually wants you there can't be the happiest thing.

Which brings me to point 3

 

3)rules changes. If current system is really gonna be changed as it looks it will... with things being made less and less objective, lowering standards instead or pushing for actual higher quality, transitions disappearing as a component, SS being watered down... now that is what, IMO, would really make him feel like there's no place for him and his skating anymore (tho new rule on sequences is for sure one that he'll love, if he keeps competing)

(about other skaters trying 4A, I can see it going both ways in terms of firing up or dousing his competitive spirit)

(If there will be even bigger changes to the system, like the rumored "technical program and artistic program", yes, he could see it as a new challenge, but aside cutting 30secs and 1 jump 4years ago, changes to the structure of SP and FS in singles have been pretty limited for his entire looong senior career. Substantial changes in requirements and duration of both programs might take a lot of of training to adapt to the new rythm. Plus, it would be against his view about pursuing most difficult technique and art in the same program. Personally, I see such an occurrance like something that would make him leave rather than stay)

[Perelandra]

@NattyTashiI genuinely wish Good luck to Nathan and his ambitions to attend Medical School. I hope he makes a success of this excellent and rewarding career. It will be quite a challenge and will require a great deal of commitment in terms of time and hard work. If he is serious about following this profession it will be years of Med School and then many years of work before becoming a senior Doctor.

Although Nathan has stated in interviews that he is having a hiatus from Figure Skating to concentrate on his studies, finishing his primary degree, realistically it would be difficult to return to the world stage of competitive skating after a protracted break. With regards to the intensity of studying at Medical School, it would be difficult to incorporate competition level practice with Med School. He may wish to move on to this new chapter and not delay finishing his degree and then onto Grad school

Not sure about the US curriculum, here in UK it is 6 years at University followed by 2 years foundation training, 2-3 years Core training, 5-6 years Speciality training( 4 years for General Practice ) plus very demanding Royal College post graduate exams, which only small percentage pass per attempt, so repeating attempts may be needed

@EisEllehas stated that USFSA will be uber promoting their next top skater, most likely Ilia M and has correctly deduced that this athlete backed by a strong Federation will only serve to stamp out all other competitors

 

Quite honestly, I don't know how some of the skaters can face this injustice day after day, at pretty much every competition they attend, even if they skate the performance of their careers.

Yuzuru has my utmost admiration to be able to turn up and give his best, he is too good a person to have to endure this barely disguised discrimination. He will be rewarded eventually when all of his fans follow him to ice shows and stop buying ISU event tickets and consequently divert funds away from all skating disciplines. There will be karmic consequences for failing to take care of the jewel of figure skating. His fans will spend their money on Yuzu enterprises and if ISU goes extinct so be it

 

The final irony IMHO, after having thrown candies to favourite competitors, the latest OGM winner has grabbed the Gold and headed off to follow their own path, having given little back to the ISU coffers

Yuzuru is one of the few Olympic Gold medallists who continued to raise the profile of competitive figure skating, the fans bring in bushels of cash to ISU, which in turn encourages athletes into the sport, a true legacy. Every time he attends a competition he is giving the gift of himself, the fans adore him and throw money at ISU. Believe me compared to other sports, skating disciplines are not well funded, in return he receives no gratitude whatsoever and will back fire on them in the long term.

Spoiler

It's my profession, so I'm always happy to see people are still interested in practising Medicine

 

[ImmortalBeloved]

28 minutes ago, Perelandra said:

Quite honestly, I don't know how some of the skaters can face this injustice day after day, at pretty much every competition they attend, even if they skate the performance of their careers.

@Perelandra   Thank you so much for your response and interesting view of medical training. In the USA it is also very lengthy but if someone wants to stay a GP, I think the track is slightly shorter. In reference to the quoted section above, even if the USA promotes Ilia M, Japan will not stop promoting Yuzu any time soon, as long as he either competes and or does shows. On the world stage, it would be irrelevant if the US promoted whoever they wanted, as the international judges will not necessarily agree with this promotion...am I misunderstanding this? 

[Perelandra]

@NattyTashi

Hi, yes this unfortunate state of affairs seems to exist with regards to PCS scoring. There are many posters on the planet who are skaters themselves or are expert with regards to the judging/scoring system, especially the GOE, grade of execution score for various elements within any given programme. Some skaters get away with under or pre rotations for jumps, poor quality transitions, that sort of thing. Favourites and skaters from powerful federations i.e can influence financial funding to sporting bodies seem to gain higher scores for doing the same or even lesser quality elements

If you ask about inflated vs low scoring in the general forum, pertaining to Yuzuru, I believe that you will receive a comprehensive run down of inflated scoring for some skaters versus poorly rewarded scores for Yuzuru. I'm not the best person to explain it but understand the issues when I've seen the skaters compete and the scores that were awarded in competition. It's like someone saying one ballerina X was not very good and another one Z is better for not very clear or consistent reasons, when even an amateur spectator can see that ballerina X performed beautifully and put artistry and emption into a performance but ballerina Z was technically same but had a wooden performance and was actually not very memorable. Ballerina Z has a better PR agency or came from a better known ballet school.

This may not be a very good analogy, even though I love going to the Ballet.

As I say, ask on the General Yuzu forum. Some people are IMO expert with regards to rules and scoring and will give good examples related to various competitions, you will be able to reference the performances looking at competition footage. Hope that helps a bit

There has been a lot of credible discussion over the years that Yuzu for all his talent and hard work has never been a favourite, even when he gives almost perfect performance, he falls foul of negative judging bias. 

[river]

On 5/24/2022 at 6:08 PM, Perelandra said:

@NattyTashiI genuinely wish Good luck to Nathan and his ambitions to attend Medical School. I hope he makes a success of this excellent and rewarding career. It will be quite a challenge and will require a great deal of commitment in terms of time and hard work. If he is serious about following this profession it will be years of Med School and then many years of work before becoming a senior Doctor.

Although Nathan has stated in interviews that he is having a hiatus from Figure Skating to concentrate on his studies, finishing his primary degree, realistically it would be difficult to return to the world stage of competitive skating after a protracted break. With regards to the intensity of studying at Medical School, it would be difficult to incorporate competition level practice with Med School. He may wish to move on to this new chapter and not delay finishing his degree and then onto Grad school

Not sure about the US curriculum, here in UK it is 6 years at University followed by 2 years foundation training, 2-3 years Core training, 5-6 years Speciality training( 4 years for General Practice ) plus very demanding Royal College post graduate exams, which only small percentage pass per attempt, so repeating attempts may be needed

@EisEllehas stated that USFSA will be uber promoting their next top skater, most likely Ilia M and has correctly deduced that this athlete backed by a strong Federation will only serve to stamp out all other competitors

 

Quite honestly, I don't know how some of the skaters can face this injustice day after day, at pretty much every competition they attend, even if they skate the performance of their careers.

Yuzuru has my utmost admiration to be able to turn up and give his best, he is too good a person to have to endure this barely disguised discrimination. He will be rewarded eventually when all of his fans follow him to ice shows and stop buying ISU event tickets and consequently divert funds away from all skating disciplines. There will be karmic consequences for failing to take care of the jewel of figure skating. His fans will spend their money on Yuzu enterprises and if ISU goes extinct so be it

 

The final irony IMHO, after having thrown candies to favourite competitors, the latest OGM winner has grabbed the Gold and headed off to follow their own path, having given little back to the ISU coffers

Yuzuru is one of the few Olympic Gold medallists who continued to raise the profile of competitive figure skating, the fans bring in bushels of cash to ISU, which in turn encourages athletes into the sport, a true legacy. Every time he attends a competition he is giving the gift of himself, the fans adore him and throw money at ISU. Believe me compared to other sports, skating disciplines are not well funded, in return he receives no gratitude whatsoever and will back fire on them in the long term.

  Hide contents

It's my profession, so I'm always happy to see people are still interested in practising Medicine

 

In the US it’s 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, then 3–7 years of residency (post-graduate specialty training) before you graduate. There is no shortening of  the track for primary care specialties like Family Medicine, Pediatrics, or Internal Medicine.
 

Obviously Nathan could continue to skate during college, but medical school and residency are incredibly demanding (think an average of 80 hours a week), so he won’t be able to do both. I’m an American physician and residency was the most exhausting time of my life, hands down.

[Perelandra]

5 minutes ago, river said:

In the US it’s 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, then 3–7 years of residency (post-graduate specialty training) before you graduate. There is no shortening of  the track for primary care specialties like Family Medicine, Pediatrics, or Internal Medicine.
 

Obviously Nathan could continue to skate during college, but medical school and residency are incredibly demanding (think an average of 80 hours a week), so he won’t be able to do both. I’m an American physician and residency was the most exhausting time of my life, hands down.

Hi River

Thanks for the info. 

Great to meet a fellow physician

Agreed, Nathan could continue to skate.

However, I also agree that trying to divide competitive skating commitments and demanding work schedule would be nigh on impossible, especially with night/weekend shifts/long and exhausting hours and trying to attend overseas competitions. Would he be able to take time off for such things? Nathan may also feel that having won Olympic gold, that it is time to move on to a different path. Most Olympic champions do retire from competition and do something else

There are several Olympians from Team GB - a GP who won Women's Modern Pentathlon, one of my junior docs did cross country skiing for team GB and an ENT surgeon that I worked with won Bronze in Seoul, Rowing. There are others, but it is really difficult to combine competitive anything with medical training/career

My speciality is Anaesthetics and Critical Care. My understanding that it's different in US - ITU is part of Internal Medicine and Anaesthesiology is completely separate, is that correct?

Completely different level, but I played in high standard orchestras all my life (violin ). Had to give up when trying to sit my Royal College of Anaesthetists Final Fellowship Exam, with 14month baby and 66h week. So I can completely understand how challenging it can be attempting to do everything. Don't know how things stand in US, but back in late 90's/ early 2000's higher specialist trainees ( not sure what US Doctor grade equivalent would be ) requesting part time training posts was really frowned upon by the various training Deaneries. They were mainly middle aged stick in the mud men, who perpetually looked down on working mum's. Fortunately husband was super supportive and is great dad, so i was able to finish training and get Consultant post, is that Attending in US. I was a big fan of 'House' so I feel that I should know about US  under graduate and post qualification training structure.

Kind of like ISU, make things less accessible and wonder why people aren't interested in pursuing honourable goals. 

Bye for now and lovely to start a chat with you