Ballet Styles & FS

[Fresca]

18 hours ago, kitsune said:

Could @Fresca tell me which dance styles would most suit the skaters (Yuzu, Javier, Patrick, Nathan, Jin and Shoma)? 

P.S I do not know anything about dance, so if my question is meaningless or uncomfortable please let me know.

 

No it's not meaningless at all! They are 6 very different skaters with different strengths and different styles that suit them. This requires more research on my part though. I did promise to rewatch the top 6 men at Worlds and comment on their performances and I can respond to you as an offshoot from that.

 

15 hours ago, koneko said:

Did Oksana Baiul do an Italian fouette here? So cool! I really enjoy it when ballet-inspired fs programs pay homage to the original choreography (like Nathan's hand-to-shoulder touch thingies in his Le Corsaire SP)

 

Yes so do I! In her Dying Swan EX  she also referenced a lot of the original choreography with her bourrees and the corresponding arm movements. No Vaganova port de bras though I also thought she made quite a flashy and assertive swan which didn't really fit the delicate dreaminess of Saint-Saens music. I may be biased, but I thought Yuzu did a much more beautiful version of Dying Swan with his Notte Stellata EX.

[Fresca]

On 29/05/2017 at 15:06, koneko said:

I completely agree with your friend about Nathan's weird landings. I think some (not all) principles of ballet and gymnastics can be applied to figure skating, like the importance of deep plies when landing jumps. Looking at it from a physics' perspective (sorry everyone for the geek math ): Pressure=Force/Area. The smaller the area, the greater the pressure. Force= mass X acceleration. Having a deep plie lessens the impact/pressure by creating more room/area to dispel the force of jumps - weight is distributed more evenly. Skaters' weight and the high acceleration (like a quad would have) would create more force; and they would have so little area (those thin 4-mm blades) to land on.

 

Yes, I agree and I would also include the importance of alignment. @koneko, I would love to hear your thoughts on Shoma's jump landings in the Jumps thread. There's quite a bit of discussion there already on Boyang's, Shoma's and Nathan's jump landings.

 

On 29/05/2017 at 15:06, koneko said:

I agree! I compare them to Yuzu  who I think is the epitome.

 

Yes me too! Beautiful plie, light on his skates and good alignment with flow out of them.

[Xen]

Question for @koneko and @Fresca:

I'm currently debating adding to my skating training. At the gym close to my work place, they don't have any ballet or barre based classes. But they both have Jazz classes. Is Jazz a decent substitute for traditional ballet or barre classes? Currently I'm more focused on flexibility and maybe a bit of leg strength for jumping. They also have latin dance classes, but I'm dodging those...

 

As for Ballet and Figure skating...this is something I've always found weird. For a lot of the american skaters who proportedly did Ballet (Nathan and Sarah Hughes), sometimes I wonder where the Ballet went? Because I don't really see how their movements are more "ballet-esque" than some of the non-ballet trained skaters. Ie Sarah vs Sasha vs Michelle Kwan. Or Nathan vs Yuzuru. 

[koneko]

@Xen Thank you for the question, and Yay, that sounds like a marvelous idea to add to your skating training! A lot of my ballet students who are cross-training figure skaters came to me because they wanted to improve their flexibility. Yes, I would say that Jazz is a great substitute to ballet training because they have the same foundation and similar principles: flexibility, developing core and leg strength for jumps, the importance of good jump technique from take off to landing...and so on. Though if you also want to improve your turnout, or want to focus on posture/form as well I highly suggest ballet more. 

 

Maybe try both gyms first to see which fits you and your needs better. A good part of it is having a teacher who really knows his/her stuff. Most Jazz teachers also have ballet training, so go with the one who has 

 

This is an interesting Interview I think you might be interested in. They interviewed Annette Thomas, a former ballet dancer who is now training figure skaters in ballet. She was asked about the benefits of ballet training for figure skaters.

 

If there are no ballet studios near you, and to help you decide on adding to your training (without spending money ), I also recommend this: Youtube playlist. This is series of ballet barre workouts geared towards everyone who are interested in trying out ballet. They're easy to follow and you can do at home (and for free!). Just  put on some socks, grab a sturdy chair and you're ready to go! The teacher in these vids, Kathryn Morgan, is a former principal dancer with NYC Ballet. She is primarily Balanchine-trained, but has amazing technique. Her ballet barre workouts have different goals - like improving turnouts, arms & back, core, balance, etc. 

 

Good luck!! I'd love to know how everything turns out. I'll be cheering for you from the virtual sidelines! 

5 hours ago, Xen said:

For a lot of the american skaters who proportedly did Ballet (Nathan and Sarah Hughes), sometimes I wonder where the Ballet went?

I wonder about the same thing  I didn't even know that Nathan had ballet training until Fresca pointed it out  (And I've been dancing for 17 years,lol). I can see it in skaters like Baiul or Machida, but not them. I would definitely say that Yuzuru is more graceful than Nathan (Critics who say that Yuzu is not 'balletic' needs to get their eyes checked. I think Yuzu can be 'balletic' if that's what his program requires him to, Amazing Extra Perfectionist that he is. )

[koneko]

On 6/1/2017 at 05:37, Fresca said:

Hummingbirds is good! They have such busy arms! Yes, being succinct is tough...I text people in paragraphs...

Yes! So Balanchine swans are more like hummingbirds, then. HAHAHA, I do the same thing. I often run out of space when texting people. But yay, we have a new thread where we can be as 'unsuccinct' as possible! 

Starting from a lunge position before turning is way, way harder than the traditional 4th position, I think. Especially when the back leg is straight. Because of the deep plie, it's a much longer way to go 'up.'

On 6/1/2017 at 05:37, Fresca said:

She's a beast!!!! With that sensitivity to balance and alignment, what kind of monster figure skater would she have made???

Sophia would've probably taken the fs world by storm, beast that she is.  Just look at this and this!  She's one of the few dancers who spins like a figure skater (sans the ice and boots). The best thing is, she's only 14 and would only get better and better (OMG what was I doing at 14? ) I like her because she makes me believe in impossible things; this is the same feeling engendered in me by our dearly beloved Space Kitten. 

On 6/1/2017 at 05:37, Fresca said:

Given this discussion, I did a quick web search about Balanchine technique and injuries and what I found was very interesting.

These are fascinating reads, thank you! I've tried Cecchetti, RAD and Australian Conservatoire of Ballet (based on Vaganova), but wow, there are so many more methods! I like how the write-up stressed (in capital, bold red letters ), that Vaganova is 'INJURY-FREE' training. The writer must be a fan of this method.  

On 6/1/2017 at 05:37, Fresca said:

"Balanchine Method dancers must be extremely fit and flexible. Injuries can be common for those inexperienced with this technique."

Oh my! I've heard and read from critics how this method can be injury-prone, but I didn't know it was this bad. I feel so sad for those former dancers who've had hip replacements at such a young age. I think it's interesting how one of the posters mentioned that the current technique is an incomplete, 'bastardized version' of what Balanchine taught; and that he was apparently very hands-on and took into account the dancer's individuality in training them.

On 6/1/2017 at 05:37, Fresca said:

I don't know what style of ballet Nathan is trained in but I hope for his sake it's not Balanchine.

Me, too! I've tried searching videos of him dancing ballet online, to no avail; so we can't really be sure unless someone asks him. There is a good chance that he was trained in/at the least has studied Balanchine,though. According to its wiki page, " Balanchine technique is taught in schools throughout North America." Balanchine created this in America and it is widely regarded as the 'American technique' ("Balanchine technique are true American creations"). The Ballet West Academy website is vague ("trains pure classical ballet with a uniquely American Syllabus"), but it did say that their students performed Balanchine's works; so at the least they also teach Balanchine there... I guess we have to be optimistic then  

(I had to retype my whole reply because of internet issues, so do forgive me if I miss something )

[koneko]

On 6/1/2017 at 06:18, Fresca said:

Yes so do I! In her Dying Swan EX  she also referenced a lot of the original choreography with her bourrees and the corresponding arm movements. No Vaganova port de bras though I also thought she made quite a flashy and assertive swan which didn't really fit the delicate dreaminess of Saint-Saens music. I may be biased, but I thought Yuzu did a much more beautiful version of Dying Swan with his Notte Stellata EX.

She's more suited to the Black Swan role with her bold interpretation, I think. If you're biased, then I certainly share the same bias  As much as I admire Oksana and Johnny, I like Yuzu's version the best  (I didn't know that someone made a lyric version of Saint-Saens music...omg so beautiful. I'm super glad I learned Italian before this performance: it was Destiny! ) I watch Yuzu's performance daily as part of my soul-cleansing ritual. 

[koneko]

On 6/1/2017 at 06:26, Fresca said:

 

Yes, I agree and I would also include the importance of alignment. @koneko, I would love to hear your thoughts on Shoma's jump landings in the Jumps thread. There's quite a bit of discussion there already on Boyang's, Shoma's and Nathan's jump landings.

 

 

Yes me too! Beautiful plie, light on his skates and good alignment with flow out of them.

This is an interesting discussion, thank you for linking me to it!

Yes, alignment is important because it would create an even, level area to receive the force equally, thereby diffusing the pressure more safely. It would definitely lessen the impact/shock on parts of the body landing the jumps. 

 

There are no words sufficient enough to encompass the beauty of Yuzu's jumps. As many have pointed out, they look so effortless when they're actually super duper hard .  So light, so airy! (Gravity?What gravity?)

 

I would also love to read your analysis of the Top 6 men. It would be an amazing read! 

[Fresca]

11 hours ago, Xen said:

Question for @koneko and @Fresca:

I'm currently debating adding to my skating training. At the gym close to my work place, they don't have any ballet or barre based classes. But they both have Jazz classes. Is Jazz a decent substitute for traditional ballet or barre classes? Currently I'm more focused on flexibility and maybe a bit of leg strength for jumping. They also have latin dance classes, but I'm dodging those...

 

Yes! If what you want is to improve flexibility and leg strength for jumping, then jazz is a good subsitute. As @koneko said, jazz as we know it today borrows a lot from ballet so has similar foundations and principles. There are big differences though to the movement and the feeling. Jazz is heavy, weighted. There are a lot of isolations and snappy, sharp movements. Many steps are done with bent knees (good for that leg strength!). Ballet is light, flowing and done on the toes (also good for leg strength!). Movement and energy are directed upward, not downward. Posture is also different. Ballet is done upright with the shoulders down and spine straight and lifted. Jazz requires a more open upper body. There is contraction and expansion of the torso and torso and shoulder isolations. So your style of movement in skates may change in an unexpected way. Not in a bad way! Just different than what you would get with ballet.

 

I totally encourage you to give it a try! I will also be cheering for you from the sidelines!

 

Do not do Latin dance if what you want is flexibility and leg strength. Beginner classes in Latin dance will not help you with those. You start with learning the footwork, partnering (following/leading) and Latin body movement. You'll only get signficant improvements in flexibility and leg strength from Latin dance once you start learning the very advanced steps that require such flexibility/strength. It won't be anywhere near as effective as what you get from the repetitions/exercises done at the barre or floorwork from ballet/jazz even at a basic level.

 

11 hours ago, Xen said:

As for Ballet and Figure skating...this is something I've always found weird. For a lot of the american skaters who proportedly did Ballet (Nathan and Sarah Hughes), sometimes I wonder where the Ballet went? Because I don't really see how their movements are more "ballet-esque" than some of the non-ballet trained skaters. Ie Sarah vs Sasha vs Michelle Kwan. Or Nathan vs Yuzuru. 

 

5 hours ago, koneko said:

I wonder about the same thing  I didn't even know that Nathan had ballet training until Fresca pointed it out  (And I've been dancing for 17 years,lol). I can see it in skaters like Baiul or Machida, but not them. I would definitely say that Yuzuru is more graceful than Nathan (Critics who say that Yuzu is not 'balletic' needs to get their eyes checked. I think Yuzu can be 'balletic' if that's what his program requires him to, Amazing Extra Perfectionist that he is. )

 

Where did the ballet go indeed?? I guess one question is how much ballet did these skaters do? Sarah Hughes doesn't look balletic to me neither in her upper nor lower body. Nathan does have a balletic upper body with lovely port de bras and he uses epaulement. However, he doesn't have a balletic lower body. No good plie nor flexibility (Have you seen his spread eagle? It's quite ugly ) which are musts for a ballet dancer and which Yuzu does have in spades (those soft knees and turnout!).

 

@koneko , you missed it but I went on a ballet rant in the Goldenskate Fan Fest about those critics   Yuzu can definitely be balletic when he wants to be, certainly more than any of the other top men.

 

[Fresca]

4 hours ago, koneko said:

Starting from a lunge position before turning is way, way harder than the traditional 4th position, I think. Especially when the back leg is straight. Because of the deep plie, it's a much longer way to go 'up.'

 

Yes, I think so as well (I just tried it...). You are already in deep plie which means you need to push more off the floor to get up whilst the back leg is also straight, so you can't use it to push off the floor and you are relying solely on your front leg.

 

4 hours ago, koneko said:

Sophia would've probably taken the fs world by storm, beast that she is.  Just look at this and this!  She's one of the few dancers who spins like a figure skater (sans the ice and boots). The best thing is, she's only 14 and would only get better and better (OMG what was I doing at 14? ) I like her because she makes me believe in impossible things; this is the same feeling engendered in me by our dearly beloved Space Kitten. 

 

Count me as a fan too! She is a phenom! As you said, like Yuzu, someone who makes the impossible possible. I can't wait to see what's ahead for her with all that talent!

 

4 hours ago, koneko said:

These are fascinating reads, thank you! I've tried Cecchetti, RAD and Australian Conservatoire of Ballet (based on Vaganova), but wow, there are so many more methods! I like how the write-up stressed (in capital, bold red letters ), that Vaganova is 'INJURY-FREE' training. The writer must be a fan of this method. 

 

That's amazing! I only have experience with Vaganova. How are Cecchetti and RAD? How different are they from Vaganova?

 

The Artistic Director and Founder of the school is a Vaganova graduate so I'm guessing it must be a Vaganova school

 

4 hours ago, koneko said:

Oh my! I've heard and read from critics how this method can be injury-prone, but I didn't know it was this bad. I feel so sad for those former dancers who've had hip replacements at such a young age. I think it's interesting how one of the posters mentioned that the current technique is an incomplete, 'bastardized version' of what Balanchine taught; and that he was apparently very hands-on and took into account the dancer's individuality in training them.

 

Yes! I also found the following comments interesting: 1) that when Balanchine was there, most teachers were Russian and taught Russian technique (Vaganova I'm assuming as Balanchine was a graduate of the school) so Balanchine's methods were flourishes rather than a foundation; 2) many NYCB dancers started ballet and built their technique with other training methods and then went to SAB to finish their training.

 

4 hours ago, koneko said:

Me, too! I've tried searching videos of him dancing ballet online, to no avail; so we can't really be sure unless someone asks him. There is a good chance that he was trained in/at the least has studied Balanchine,though. According to its wiki page, " Balanchine technique is taught in schools throughout North America." Balanchine created this in America and it is widely regarded as the 'American technique' ("Balanchine technique are true American creations"). The Ballet West Academy website is vague ("trains pure classical ballet with a uniquely American Syllabus"), but it did say that their students performed Balanchine's works; so at the least they also teach Balanchine there... I guess we have to be optimistic then 

 

The only clip I've seen is here but he was very young then so I don't know how far he was into his training and didn't do much so it's hard to tell. Like you, I think it's likely that he did have some Balanchine training. As the website says the students performed Balanchine and as I also read in one of the Balanchine discussions I linked to that Ballet West has a lot of Balanchine in their repertoire, the Director must like Balanchine.

 

3 hours ago, koneko said:

She's more suited to the Black Swan role with her bold interpretation, I think. If you're biased, then I certainly share the same bias  As much as I admire Oksana and Johnny, I like Yuzu's version the best  (I didn't know that someone made a lyric version of Saint-Saens music...omg so beautiful. I'm super glad I learned Italian before this performance: it was Destiny! ) I watch Yuzu's performance daily as part of my soul-cleansing ritual. 

 

Oksana is definitely more Odile than Odette! She makes that Balanchine-like break at the wrists in her arm movements become coquettish!

 

I think Yuzu can be both as he makes such a good rock star though he's only given us Odette as a swan so far. Even when he was playing the half-black, half-white swan in White Legend, he put a lot of yearning and melancholy in his performance. He said he wanted to give a feeling of the desire to stretch his wings and fly away and he did exactly that. I still think in White Legend he is playing baby Rothbart before he turns fully Black, trying to fight his destiny of villainy.

 

3 hours ago, koneko said:

There are no words sufficient enough to encompass the beauty of Yuzu's jumps. As many have pointed out, they look so effortless when they're actually super duper hard .  So light, so airy! (Gravity?What gravity?)

 

Yes his jumps are so beautiful Watching Yuzu for me is like watching Baryshnikov- a special genius in his field. Everything is effortless. You just feel privileged to be able to watch it.

[koneko]

On 6/6/2017 at 04:22, Fresca said:

Do not do Latin dance if what you want is flexibility and leg strength. Beginner classes in Latin dance will not help you with those.

I second this! I tried Latin dance and Modern Ballroom and the first things they taught are how to do the basic steps and how to move with your partner. No barre work and floor work so much (but maybe that depends on the teacher?)

 

Theoretically speaking, maybe pole dancing is also another possible substitute for additional training? It certainly develops flexibility and leg (plus arm and core!!) strength. Additionally, the physics behind the spins are pretty much the same (nerd talk: angular momentum = rotational inertia X angular velocity. To make it short [and not put everyone to sleep ], keeping a tight position allows them to spin faster.) And figure skaters and pole dancers don't spot!  That still boggles my mind

On 6/6/2017 at 04:22, Fresca said:

Where did the ballet go indeed?? I guess one question is how much ballet did these skaters do?

According to that article you linked, Nathan apparently did 6 1/2 years of ballet and he started when he was seven. So....where did the ballet go???

On 6/6/2017 at 04:22, Fresca said:

you missed it but I went on a ballet rant in the Goldenskate Fan Fest about those critics   Yuzu can definitely be balletic when he wants to be, certainly more than any of the other top men

That must have been a passionate, epic rant  I'm really sad I missed it. If I was not so allergic to that place in the aftermath of the Great Exodus, I would totally go back and read it.  Yes, Yuzu is so versatile, like a chameleon changing its colors to suit his surroundings and circumstances. 

 

 

[koneko]

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

Yes, I think so as well (I just tried it...). You are already in deep plie which means you need to push more off the floor to get up whilst the back leg is also straight, so you can't use it to push off the floor and you are relying solely on your front leg.

You described the struggle perfectly! Maybe this is one reason why the Balanchine technique requires dancers to keep their weight forward/'lift' their torso.

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

That's amazing! I only have experience with Vaganova. How are Cecchetti and RAD? How different are they from Vaganova?

I moved around a lot when I was a kid, so whatever ballet studio was nearest, I had to go . (Disclaimer:My bias is strongly in favor of Vaganova, so that might color my opinions a bit. Plus, the kind of teachers I've had affect my impressions of the methods as well).

 

Cecchetti is I think the closest thing the ballet world has to military school. They have this 'days of the week' thing in which each day of training is focused a particular aspect (ex. lines, pointe work, turnout, jumps etc). Ballet is treated as an exact science. Lots of things to memorize (even head positions have names!), and your head  move in one unit with your arms and legs. But the port de bras are so stiff! (Vaganova has the BEST) I do like how it emphasized on having natural turnouts, though. Adagios are super, duper, monstrously, impossibly hard (lots of grand plie into pirouettes, a la seconde promenades...my knees hurt just remembering). Frankly, I wouldn't recommend Cecchetti to someone who just plans to do ballet casually.

 

RAD is almost the opposite: the level of difficulty progresses so slowly. You have to repeat and repeat the set of exercises until you can do them perfectly before you can learn new things. Even if you go up a grade, there is only a slight advancement. My younger self wanted to learn the "flashy, explosive stuff," so I didn't enjoy this as much  Plus, it was a culture shock after I switched to a non-RAD school where everyone on my age/level is expected to already know how to double/triple pirouettes, entrechats  and such - I was used to doing plie exercises without much change for months. I had a lot of catching up to do.

I guess my biggest disadvantage is that I don't have a "pure" ballet technique.

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

The Artistic Director and Founder of the school is a Vaganova graduate so I'm guessing it must be a Vaganova school

 That explains the glowing, much lengthier(compared to the others) Vaganova write-up. 

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

The only clip I've seen is here but he was very young then so I don't know how far he was into his training and didn't do much so it's hard to tell.

Once again, your genius Internet surfing skills astound me!  Awww, so cute! Lots and lots of fascinating stuff in this article and vid:

1. The article actually compared Nathan to Nureyev? Wow. Those are some big shoes to fill, boi.

2. Using Nureyev's vids as inspiration for his Le Corsaire SP answers the question in my mind as to who Nathan was portraying. I had wondered whether it was the dashing, debonair Conrad or the topless, slave boy toy Ali  Because while the choreo says the latter, the costume says neither. I guess going sans shirt (certainly) "gives the effect of excessive nudity" and is not "modest, dignified and appropriate for athletic competition" as per ISU rules 

3. Even as a young dancer, he has better upper body form than his lower body. Lovely port de bras, but Baby Nathan, please point your toes properly. He just scrunches his toes and doesn't use his arch!  But I'm optimistic and I'd like to believe that his ballet technique improved during his 6 1/2 years with the academy.

4. Quoting from the article: ["He has perfect placement (relative positioning of his torso, head and limbs), perfect turnout (hip rotation) and natural kinesthetic awareness that some kids never get," Snarr said.] - uhhh, *cue Exhibit A: His Spread eagle"

5. Even Nathan himself admits that he doesn't show as much artistry because he's more focused on the athleticism.

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

I think Yuzu can be both as he makes such a good rock star though he's only given us Odette as a swan so far.

You have inflamed in me a desire to see him portray Odile someday. All that intensity, that passion, that aggressiveness, that seductive allure... oh my, I never knew I needed this  He'd totally nail it, too. I love that idea of him being Baby Rothbart in White Legend, thank you!; I have to watch that performance again with that headcanon.

On 6/6/2017 at 06:24, Fresca said:

Yes his jumps are so beautiful Watching Yuzu for me is like watching Baryshnikov- a special genius in his field. Everything is effortless. You just feel privileged to be able to watch it.

THIS.

[Fresca]

8 hours ago, koneko said:

Cecchetti is I think the closest thing the ballet world has to military school. They have this 'days of the week' thing in which each day of training is focused a particular aspect (ex. lines, pointe work, turnout, jumps etc). Ballet is treated as an exact science. Lots of things to memorize (even head positions have names!), and your head  move in one unit with your arms and legs. But the port de bras are so stiff! (Vaganova has the BEST) I do like how it emphasized on having natural turnouts, though. Adagios are super, duper, monstrously, impossibly hard (lots of grand plie into pirouettes, a la seconde promenades...my knees hurt just remembering). Frankly, I wouldn't recommend Cecchetti to someone who just plans to do ballet casually.

 

RAD is almost the opposite: the level of difficulty progresses so slowly. You have to repeat and repeat the set of exercises until you can do them perfectly before you can learn new things. Even if you go up a grade, there is only a slight advancement. My younger self wanted to learn the "flashy, explosive stuff," so I didn't enjoy this as much  Plus, it was a culture shock after I switched to a non-RAD school where everyone on my age/level is expected to already know how to double/triple pirouettes, entrechats  and such - I was used to doing plie exercises without much change for months. I had a lot of catching up to do.

 

Thanks so much! This is fascinating!!  Are there stylistic differences/preferences to each method a la Balanchine with the open fingers and bent wrists and exaggerated lines?

 

9 hours ago, koneko said:

I guess my biggest disadvantage is that I don't have a "pure" ballet technique.

 

For choreographers, is it not better that you are exposed to different training methods?

 

8 hours ago, koneko said:

2. Using Nureyev's vids as inspiration for his Le Corsaire SP answers the question in my mind as to who Nathan was portraying. I had wondered whether it was the dashing, debonair Conrad or the topless, slave boy toy Ali  Because while the choreo says the latter, the costume says neither. I guess going sans shirt (certainly) "gives the effect of excessive nudity" and is not "modest, dignified and appropriate for athletic competition" as per ISU rules 

 

Illusion mesh makes it possible!!! I want to see Yuzu do Scheherezade!

 

8 hours ago, koneko said:

3. Even as a young dancer, he has better upper body form than his lower body. Lovely port de bras, but Baby Nathan, please point your toes properly. He just scrunches his toes and doesn't use his arch!  But I'm optimistic and I'd like to believe that his ballet technique improved during his 6 1/2 years with the academy.

 

I'd like to believe that too!! I also noticed the clunky feet  What I'd give to see his current toe point. I'm curious in general to see how good his feet are. Maybe he doesn't have very flexible/articulate feet which could contribute to the hard landings and not so deep edges??

 

8 hours ago, koneko said:

4. Quoting from the article: ["He has perfect placement (relative positioning of his torso, head and limbs), perfect turnout (hip rotation) and natural kinesthetic awareness that some kids never get," Snarr said.] - uhhh, *cue Exhibit A: His Spread eagle"

 

Yes that bit really confuzzled me too. His flexibility isn't great but he could have lost it with age which is most likely as he also did gymnastics.

 

8 hours ago, koneko said:

You have inflamed in me a desire to see him portray Odile someday. All that intensity, that passion, that aggressiveness, that seductive allure... oh my, I never knew I needed this  He'd totally nail it, too.

 

He gave us something like that already and it's called...Vertigo...But seriously, I'd love to see Yuzu do Black Swan too There are 2 male versions of "Black Swan" that I have seen. The first is the Gomes version of Rothbart in ABT's Swan Lake where he portrays the character as a suave, charming, mysterious outsider that catches the attention of the ladies at court but it's too cool and composed for what I think a male Black Swan should be. Then there's the Black Swan in the Matthew Bourne adaptation of Swan Lake which I think is too sexually aggressive (who carries a riding crop to a party?? ). I can't think of another character that would be portrayed similarly. You only see such "aggressiveness" in ballet villains and I think in ballet there are slim pickings for villains (the Rat King??? ).

[Xen]

3 hours ago, Fresca said:

He gave us something like that already and it's called...Vertigo...But seriously, I'd love to see Yuzu do Black Swan too There are 2 male versions of "Black Swan" that I have seen. The first is the Gomes version of Rothbart in ABT's Swan Lake where he portrays the character as a suave, charming, mysterious outsider that catches the attention of the ladies at court but it's too cool and composed for what I think a male Black Swan should be. Then there's the Black Swan in the Matthew Bourne adaptation of Swan Lake which I think is too sexually aggressive (who carries a riding crop to a party?? ). I can't think of another character that would be portrayed similarly. You only see such "aggressiveness" in ballet villains and I think in ballet there are slim pickings for villains (the Rat King??? ).

He could possibly do the second version of the black swan, sans the riding crop. Afterall, he did just perform LGC with the purple pants that hides nothing...and LGC could be considered pretty aggressive, he just needs to up it a bit more. Vertigo was "aww. my baby brother is trying to be all sexually aggressive, so cute!" While LGC was "okay, so my baby brother can be sexy without trying."  Speaking of which, somehow I want to see Yuzuru do a tribute to Baryshnikov or Nijinsky....

 

Dance styles:

Javi- tapdance and maybe Jazz? His outfit from the LP this season just made me think tapdancing, automatically. 

Patrick- Possibly ballet too. Though with his build being a bit more bulky than Yuzu, he could maybe go classical? He looks like a better candidate for lifting female dancers than Yuzu. 

 

 

[kaeryth]

On 06/06/2017 at 08:24, Fresca said:

Yes his jumps are so beautiful Watching Yuzu for me is like watching Baryshnikov- a special genius in his field. Everything is effortless. You just feel privileged to be able to watch it.

 

I don't know anything about dance or ballet but I've been following this thread and learning a lot!

When I read this particular line, I actually remembered that Kurt Browning said the same thing on PJ Kwong's podcast for GPF 2014!

 

At 9:50 he says: "It's a level of jumping skill that Baryshnikov... you know what I mean.. in ballet everyone went 'when Baryshnikov jumps, it's just different.' When Yuzu jumps, it's just different."

 

 

[koneko]

11 hours ago, Fresca said:

Thanks so much! This is fascinating!!  Are there stylistic differences/preferences to each method a la Balanchine with the open fingers and bent wrists and exaggerated lines?

My Cecchetti teacher didn't believe in single pirouettes  Pirouettes en dehors are usually started from 2nd position (maybe to improve turnout or maybe to make things harder LOL) and they end with a lunge facing the front with the arms in the 'giving position' (I can't remember its real name, only what my teacher nicknamed it  Basically your arms are outstretched in front of you like you're giving something).

 

Cecchetti fouettes are also different. The working leg is extended to the front (standing leg on demi plie) before whipping it to second. Vaganova taught me to extend the working leg directly to second before whipping it to passe. (I like the Cecchetti style better - I feel like I gain more angular momentum that way)

 

I studied RAD under the old syllabus, so a lot of things might have changed. From what I recall, the 1st position arms are really low - almost to the level of the bellybutton. Pirouettes en dedans whip the leg to 2nd first before going to passe. A RAD student would never compromise their form for a higher extension. (I think they changed the syllabus to make it more challenging now; in the old syllabus, graded students don't even learn pointework - only if they're vocational or in the advanced level)

11 hours ago, Fresca said:

For choreographers, is it not better that you are exposed to different training methods?

This question makes me feel better about my "impure" technique, thank you! Maybe for longevity it might not be, and if I was considering to become a full-time ballet teacher (which I am - ever since hearing Yuzu's struggle to get fs practice when his rink was destroyed If students interested to learn ballet have no means to do so, I want to bring ballet to them). A Cecchetti school, for example, would definitely not hire me . 

11 hours ago, Fresca said:

Illusion mesh makes it possible!!! I want to see Yuzu do Scheherezade!

Illusion mesh would've been better. His costume was not pirate-y. I want to see Yuzu do Scherehezade, too - he definitely has her storytelling abilities that could capture an audience.

12 hours ago, Fresca said:

I'm curious in general to see how good his feet are.

I want to know, too. I think you have a sound theory about the articulation of his feet might affect his skating.

 

12 hours ago, Fresca said:

Yes that bit really confuzzled me too. His flexibility isn't great but he could have lost it with age which is most likely as he also did gymnastics.

I've always believed that flexibility is a matter of genetics and practice. In theory if he did gymnastics also, there is an extra reason for him to be more flexible (like FS' Lipnitskaya or Ballet's Cojocaru ). Yes, maybe he lost it with age (plus maybe he's not genetically flexible and that he didn't practice it a lot)

12 hours ago, Fresca said:

There are 2 male versions of "Black Swan" that I have seen.

Gomes is amazing at potraying Rothbart in this ABT version - in other performances Rothbart just comes off as a creep . And omg, you linked my fave performance of Matthew Bourne's version of Swan Lake  (a large part is because Adam Cooper is gorgeous and he did both The Swan and The Stranger so well). I've always wondered who the Stranger was and why he resembled the Swan.

I do agree that it's too overtly sexual (Bourne's Nutcracker is pretty much the same...too much licking and 'twerking' on poles) I think the Black Swan of this version is pretty much summed up by this emoji: . I'd like to see a male Black Swan that is more subtle at seducing (without the licking, inappropriate fondling & ogling AND the riding crop )

 

12 hours ago, Fresca said:

I think in ballet there are slim pickings for villains (the Rat King??? ).

 YES! Most of the ballet villains are silly and for comic relief (Idk why, but all this talk of ballet villains reminded me of The Lesson (The Professor started as being silly and creepy then escalated to someone capable of murder Kobborg did an excellent job portraying both sides. I lowkey wanted to share this vid also to marvel at Cojocaru's grand battement)