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[2018/19] 4CC (04.02-10.02) - Men SP & FS

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10 minutes ago, shanshani said:

Last season, he only got called once per segment at Olys, and his SP didn't get called at all at Worlds (he did suffer a lot of calls in the FS, but he also fell a lot and made other errors, which tends to result in greater scrutiny). Those are two very major competitions, so I disagree with the idea that Vincent is always called--he was treated leniently in 3/4 segments of the biggest competitions in the past year or so.

 

People are annoyed because his coaches and various US media people are trying to propagandize away his technical issues. I think people would get quite annoyed at Orser too if he went out and started loudly denying that Junhwan underrotates his 4S despite the fact that everyone can see that he does just by looking at the footage. Plus, with Junhwan it's just the one jump--for Vincent, it's typically multiple jumps. 

Just the fact that you have to go back to last season to see when he got lenient treatment (he still got calls, just not enough for you) speaks for itself.

 

Fortunately for Orser, he has almost no occasions to do that because his student is rarely called for his URs and suspect edges that like you say everyone can see.

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2 hours ago, Yume said:

Just the fact that you have to go back to last season to see when he got lenient treatment (he still got calls, just not enough for you) speaks for itself.

 

Fortunately for Orser, he has almost no occasions to do that because his student is rarely called for his URs and suspect edges that like you say everyone can see.

I don't see how it speaks for itself. Last season wasn't that long ago, I honestly just don't remember what happened in this season because I haven't really been paying attention to the competitions Vincent's been in. Those competitions stick out to me because they were the last time there was a lot of controversy over Vincent's scores, and they're the most important competitions he's been in lately, so matter a little more than a random Senior B or Grand Prix stop. I dislike being accused of hating on Vincent just because I think complaints about technical issues are legitimate--in fact, in various places I have said positive things about his interpretation of music and even tried to get people to watch him skate. Criticizing judges and tech panelists is not the same thing as hating on someone--I have said nothing negative about Vincent himself, other than that he underrotates his jumps, which he does. That's not a reflection on anything but the technical cleanliness of his jumps. Note that I have also said that Jun underrotates his 4S, and I like Jun. Saying that someone has X technical issue and the scores don't reflect it is not a personal attack--otherwise, I could also be accused of personally attacking lots of skaters who I am a fan of, like Evgenia Medvedeva, who of course has a flutz issue and should have gotten called for it (and was way overscored in her first two seasons in general--and I like Evgenia, I'm not saying it to hate! I'm saying it because I think it's objectively true, even as a I root for her to succeed.) Kaori Sakamoto has a flutz issue too--is it an attack to point that out?

 

I think what has everyone on edge is that for other skaters, nobody but the most diehard fans denies the various technical problems they have. Of course, their coaches strategize around it, trying to avoid the call, and they have been unfairly scored high in various competitions, all of which draw complaints. (Alina and Evgenia get more hate than Vincent will ever get, tbh.) It's pretty much de rigeur for fans to complain about how X skaters didn't get called for UR or flutz. And then there is pushback to those complaints, all of this is very normal. But in Vincent's case, there seems to be a concerted effort by his coach and by US media to deny the problem even exists and and there have been a pretty high % of Vincent-UR-defense posts that have attributed malicious motives to people who are just giving their honest opinion. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me. What I am saying is that not all criticism is hate, and people who have different opinions can hold them honestly and in good faith. Just because someone disagrees, doesn't mean they're malicious, and it's pretty grating to have your honest opinions attributed to some kind of vendetta you don't have.

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3 hours ago, shanshani said:

I think people would get quite annoyed at Orser too if he went out and started loudly denying that Junhwan underrotates his 4S despite the fact that everyone can see that he does just by looking at the footage. Plus, with Junhwan it's just the one jump--for Vincent, it's typically multiple jumps. 

 

That’s not true. All three of Jun’s jumping passes in the SP had problems. I don’t understand why international judges are so lenient to him this season. ISU probably need a new star in asia.

And I doubt fans will be annoyed at Orser or Jun even if they complain and deny. There’s this unconditional love for them and for TCC because of you know who. 

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1 minute ago, hopeandlegacy2018 said:

 

That’s not true. All three of Jun’s jumping passes in the SP had problems. I don’t understood why international judges are so lenient to him this season. ISU probably need a new Asian star.

And I doubt fans will be annoyed at Orser or Jun even if they complain and deny. There’s this unconditional love for them and for TCC because of you know who. 

I've seen fans here get really annoyed at Orser over Stephen Gogolev's uneven development/hypocritical comments on his versus junior ladies' quads/pre-rotation technique and also at judges for Stephen's PCS, so I completely disagree that Orser, TCC, or his skaters are immune from criticism (I really remember this because I was part of a big argument about it, because though I agreed with the thrust of the criticism, I thought people were being too harsh given Stephen's age). And I did review Jun's other jumps (Chinese FS fans are having a cow over him being overscored)--I think the 3A is borderline, Lz is unclear edge, but only the 4S is as serious as Vincent's 4S and 3A (you can make an argument that Vincent's 4Lz was borderline to the point where it should have gotten the benefit of the doubt--personally, I think it was under, but if I squint I can sort of see it). Heck, I've seen people here criticize judges for overscoring Yuzu, though obviously no one got very angry about it, but it was pointed out (quite rightly) that he got pretty generous GOE on some jumping passes earlier this season despite minor mistakes. Obviously how people react emotionally will be affected by their attachment to particular skaters, we're only human. But the idea that people are incapable of being objective about x because they like y is nonsense, imo.

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49 minutes ago, shanshani said:

I don't see how it speaks for itself. Last season wasn't that long ago, I honestly just don't remember what happened in this season because I haven't really been paying attention to the competitions Vincent's been in. Those competitions stick out to me because they were the last time there was a lot of controversy over Vincent's scores, and they're the most important competitions he's been in lately, so matter a little more than a random Senior B or Grand Prix stop. I dislike being accused of hating on Vincent just because I think complaints about technical issues are legitimate--in fact, in various places I have said positive things about his interpretation of music and even tried to get people to watch him skate. Criticizing judges and tech panelists is not the same thing as hating on someone--I have said nothing negative about Vincent himself, other than that he underrotates his jumps, which he does. That's not a reflection on anything but the technical cleanliness of his jumps. Note that I have also said that Jun underrotates his 4S, and I like Jun. Saying that someone has X technical issue and the scores don't reflect it is not a personal attack--otherwise, I could also be accused of personally attacking lots of skaters who I am a fan of, like Evgenia Medvedeva, who of course has a flutz issue and should have gotten called for it (and was way overscored in her first two seasons in general--and I like Evgenia, I'm not saying it to hate! I'm saying it because I think it's objectively true, even as a I root for her to succeed.) Kaori Sakamoto has a flutz issue too--is it an attack to point that out?

 

I think what has everyone on edge is that for other skaters, nobody but the most diehard fans denies the various technical problems they have. Of course, their coaches strategize around it, trying to avoid the call, and they have been unfairly scored high in various competitions, all of which draw complaints. (Alina and Evgenia get more hate than Vincent will ever get, tbh.) It's pretty much de rigeur for fans to complain about how X skaters didn't get called for UR or flutz. And then there is pushback to those complaints, all of this is very normal. But in Vincent's case, there seems to be a concerted effort by his coach and by US media to deny the problem even exists and and there have been a pretty high % of Vincent-UR-defense posts that have attributed malicious motives to people who are just giving their honest opinion. I'm not saying that you have to agree with me. What I am saying is that not all criticism is hate, and people who have different opinions can hold them honestly and in good faith. Just because someone disagrees, doesn't mean they're malicious, and it's pretty grating to have your honest opinions attributed to some kind of vendetta you don't have.

I didn't say that there shouldn't be criticism towards Vincent's technique. Sport is made for critic. And i know that you don't hate or bash him because you always bring some arguments and numbers. Those who bash says things like "he shouldn't even get 90 points! without explaining exactly why. I don't think that those who speak in Vincent's defense deny his flaws. At least me in all my posts in that thread i didn't deny his flaws. I agree that he has chronic URs. I don't see the problem with pointing that out.

My point it's not about ackowledging if he has URs issues or not, or if we should criticize him for that or not.

My point is that there is evident bias in criticism because some skaters get away with that or don't get as much as criticism as others (even when their uncalled flaws could have made the difference in the final result). While others get bashed even personally whatever the reasons.

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Anyway, I'm done arguing about this issue, as it's become rather unpleasant for me, and one thing I love about this forum is that it's usually a font of positivity in an internet that is often quite the opposite. But this issue has become quite negatively charged, so I'm out--goodness knows I don't need to spend even more time arguing on the internet than I usually do, and I especially don't need to do it in the place I use to get away from all of that. I hope this place can continue to be a pleasant place and that we can continue to extend to each other the presumption of good faith, even when our opinions differ. I will try to do my best on that as well. Good luck to all the men in the FS tomorrow! I hope to see some wonderful skates. See you guys then.

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Good idea. I'm done too. Sorry for bringing negativity with my unpopular opinion.

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Not trying in any way to stir things up, but it's obvious to me that if there is one matter that causes discussions here (in this forum) more than any other matter, is that sometimes some of us get pretty upset about certain scores for certain skaters, unfair judging and all that, and since everyone is different and everyone has a different concept of what is 'hating on x' and where is the line when you are discussing an athlete, it's normal that there's gonna be a clash... In any case it's always harder to come to terms through the internet, I've tried and failed many times, but I'd still say this is the most relaxing and safe environment I have encountered on the internet :sipping:I've been pretty harsh with Vincent myself and I can admit that I focus more on his URs than, for example, Jun's URs. It's because US Fed is known for getting away with so many things, I'm always worried about them. And I can admit that it could also be because I like Jun's skating as a whole a lot better than Vincent's (and at least visibly Vincent's URs look more obvious to me than Jun's?). I'm not the most impartial skating fan, that I can say. I don't even care too much about being impartial at times because I think having preferences is normal. As long as you don't bash other skaters that is.

 

In any case, I think I will get up at dawn to watch the last group of FS, yuss! It's been a long time since I've followed a competition live here, hehe c: 

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Hey guys, @yuzuangel will be making an official post about our website launch here later today  but here is a new figure skating website we recently created! If you guys are interested in rewatching the men's SP and ladies' SP & FS, it's up on our website thanks to @LadyLouwho shared the 4cc videos. We also have a lot of 2018/2019 competitions as well as other competitions prior to this season in different broadcasts/commentaries. Olympics, CWW, Eng subs that are taken down, Worlds... you name it. Hope you guys enjoy!

 

SkatingPortal.com 

 

We're currently a work in progress. Lots of bugs and login issues. But that's what we need you guys for so please help us test it out. 

 

p.s. if you guys want to rant about figure skating, we have a thread for it lol to keep the negativities off this place

 

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5 hours ago, liv said:

 

That made me think that Jason reminds me of Tigger from Winnie the Pooh... he's just bouncy, bouncy, fun fun fun fun fun!!

I was thinking the exact same thing...so now Brian has Tigger and Pooh at TCC. I wonder who are Piglet, Eeyore, Owl, and Rabbit?  Tracy has to be Kanga for sure...

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3 hours ago, hopeandlegacy2018 said:

 

That’s not true. All three of Jun’s jumping passes in the SP had problems. I don’t understand why international judges are so lenient to him this season. ISU probably need a new star in asia.

And I doubt fans will be annoyed at Orser or Jun even if they complain and deny. There’s this unconditional love for them and for TCC because of you know who. 

Spoiler

But here's the thing: Brian would never deny his students have technical problems, in fact, in interviews he's given it's more the opposite - he tends to call them out himself and say what they have to work on. The reason people have 'unconditional love' ( they don't, really) for TCC isn't just because of Yuzu. It's because Brian and Tracy are plain-spoken and honest, without being rude. And they teach their skaters to be like that too.

Hiding the above because I just realized I came in at the end and everyone's already agreed to disagree. 

 

Sorry. Not trying to re-stir the pot.

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6 hours ago, liv said:

 

That made me think that Jason reminds me of Tigger from Winnie the Pooh... he's just bouncy, bouncy, fun fun fun fun fun!!

 

I really can't wait to see him and Yuzu surpassing each other in toon-mode... at Worlds? :dancingpooh:

But: 4CC free first. Good luck, Jason :tumblr_inline_n18qrbDQJn1qid2nw:

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@Planet Hanyu Staff

 

Just heads up to you guys, this thread is getting filled with comments on comments/complaints/behaviour that most probably took place at other places.

I am hella confused with the thread at the moment.

 

Don't worry, I am gonna ignore it. Just pointing it out now, in case it blew up to the point of needing housekeeping.

 

______

I am off to bed now, so I can at least catch the last 2 groups when I wake up tomorrow morning.

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Anaheim is showing off some beautiful weather - blue skies, puffy clouds, clean air and 64F. All skaters should hang up their skates and go outside (possibly to Disneyland) and enjoy a nice day! (They can all get a suntan! Can you imagine that- bronzed and glowing figure skaters.)

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