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1 hour ago, Fay said:

Common mistakes in judging, eh? Some sound painfully familiar

 

 

I shouldn't judge a book a video from its cover its thumbnail but just looking at it makes me cringe real hard :ohno:

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1 hour ago, Figure_Frenzy said:

 

I shouldn't judge a book a video from its cover its thumbnail but just looking at it makes me cringe real hard :ohno:

I just gave it 6 minutes of my life....just so you know the lady is very proud of her powerpoint:rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, mercedes said:

I just gave it 6 minutes of my life....just so you know the lady is very proud of her powerpoint:rolleyes:

And she can’t spell synonymous. 

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2 minutes ago, mercedes said:

:smiley-laughing021:

Sorry, being a teacher spoils you for life - I just see spelling mistakes. ”Synymous” is a word I never ever saw. 

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Just now, Fay said:

Sorry, being a teacher spoils you for life - I just see spelling mistakes. ”Synymous” is a word I never ever saw. 

no no it's fine,I saw that too but  I'm not a native speaker so I thought maybe that's a word ,I was about to google it when i saw your post!

Then I sorta lost it at the lack of transitions/empty program bullet point ...like really?

 

Ah well ISU never change

 

 

 

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There is a saying that translate roughly to 

"I hear you words and I am impressed, but when I see your action and, I am confused"

 

This saying always comes to mind when I see anything from the ISU. The changes they made to the rules and all the things they say like that video all shows that they know exactly what the real problems are and that they are trying to address it. But when it comes to actual enforcement of the rules, suddenly thing are very different. It is way more annoying this way than if they would pretend not to know that there is a problem.

 

And I am bookmarking and downloading this video so that I can put it in the face of anyone who says these things are not really mistakes that should be penalised in PC and that we are only saying this because we are biased fanyus   :dozey:

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I watched the video about PCS Common mistakes, and the most (and only) positive thing is that at least they're talking about the problem, imo it's still better than sweeping everything under the rug and pretend everything is fine. It's likely that it was not the first time that they talked about common mistakes at such seminars, it's just that we don't know about it/the videos aren't posted on YT (btw, it would be really good if more of these videos would be publised on it so that they wouldn't be hidden/unlisted on Youtube. Many officials who don't attend the seminars could learn from these videos a lot).

 

Enforcing the rules is a different matter. 

 

One of the problems is that they hardly enforce anything, only in the most severe cases. In the past ca. 3.5 years only 11 fs officials were held accountable, that's really not many at all. Some of them got a warning, others go suspended for like 4 months (at the very end of the skating season...) and then they're allowed to judge again, so how do they expect that those officials learn from the mistakes if the sanction is so small?

Usually they violate the Code of Ethics or the general duties of officials, the bias/impartiality rules. I'm not even sure if they're even accountable for violating the specific duties, probably not? Or they just simply...don't enforce them. I just know the disciplinary commission doesn't even have jurisdiction over performance evaluation in general - or complaints against carelessness, incompetence etc. - only if there's also a violation of Code of Ethics. That may partially explain the low number of cases...

The Code of Ethics is pretty general but the new changes at least specify the conflict of interests. Even if some of the rules are vague.

 

Another things is that training the judges (and all officials) is crucial. :13877886: 

Maybe they need more training time, idk, judges only need to attend one seminar every four years, Tech Specialists every three years iirc, which is really not often at at all (every second year/every year would be better?). They also don't need to do that many international competitions, like for example re-appointments for Tech Specalists: 2 smaller int. events or 1 bigger event with 2 years. 

How many opportunities can get a judge at smaller comps on national level is different, it depends on the federation itself. So there'll always be some judges that have more experience at a national level, but then ISU could step in and idk, train those judge more who are less experienced, less trained at national levels (mostly smaller fed judges)?

 

And the last one, the rules themselves need to be clear, because the more vague they are th  more difficult it is to use them and the more complicated it is to enforce them.

 

But...as long as the intention or motivation to improve judging and the system doesn’t really exist then not much can be done. 

Lakernik's words come to my mind - they want to make a technical and an artistic program so that the "judges will evaluate components better" in the latter. They could improve the current system, if they wanted to, they don't have to make a completely new system for that?

 

Maybe nothing can be changed. After all, Ulrich Salchow said that block judging=basically corruption already existed in 1908, so can we expect a fair system in 2019? 

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Many Global Seminar videos have been uploaded on ISU's Development Project YouTube Channel today:

 

Referre Development and Promotion: GeneralInterruption, Interruption Cases, Referee Reports, Round Table Discussions, Initial Judges MeetingDeductions, Protest,

Program Components: OverviewSkating Skills, Transitions, Peformance, CompositionInterpretation, Common Mistakes

Singles and Pairs Technical Committee - 2019/20 Updates

Ice Dance Technical Committee - 2019/20 Updates

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Common "mistakes" in PCS judging... :hachimaki:

 

For me a "mistake" is something that happens accidentally or due to a general lack of knowledge/ ability. In PCS judging this can be:

  • concentration blackout during the performance and missing crucial details (to be fair: that CAN happen after +4 hours...)
  • hitting the wrong button on the keyboard
  • poor knowledge of the PCS rules
  • general inability of real-time judging (identifying difficult entries, steps and turns etc.)

 

The criteria listed in the PowerPoint presentation like "number of quadruple jumps", "starting order", "previous results"... have NOTHING to do with mistakes.

This is notorious inaccurate biased judging on purpose by consequently ignoring the written rules and creating own rules. No change in the ISU handbook can solve this problem.

 

What could help (maybe):

  1. Every measurable aspect of the program has to be judged by precise and objective measurement tools (especially URs, height and distance of jumps, centering and speed of spins and the ratio of 1-foot/2-foot skating).
  2. The 11 judges do NOT judge everything, but are divided into expert teams instead, focus on one or two aspects and judge those properly.
  3. After the competition every judge has to defend his or her scores for every competitor and every element that he or she has judged.
  4. This defense has to be made public with an extended score sheet including every single GOE and PCS bullet and additional explanations/ justifications.

What has to be fixed in the PCS guidelines:

  1. Currently there are no standards/ explanations/ examples of the different scoring steps (What should a 9.00 or 8.50 in SS look like?)
  2. There are no explanations or examples of difficult or good quality transitions at all (How exactly does a clean or poor Choctaw look like? When is a program overloaded with proper transitions or lacking them?)

 

EDIT: I also thought about publishing the planned step sequence in the program layouts. On the other hand, if certain skaters announce 15 difficult steps and turns in their planned StSq and only execute 5 of them properly, this could lead to even more bias... :facepalm:

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yay for the seminars:tumblr_inline_ncmif5EcBB1rpglid: (sad to think that maybe most of the views will be by fans and not the officials that would really need to study their sport more...how many seminars do referees need to follow? were the judges those who only needed 1 every 4 years? which is shamefully low, especially since ISU keeps changing things every season...)

 

I'm kinda laughing that for the personality/individuality criterion for PE they picked both Zuzu's idols:68468287: I mean, yeah, they did have quite a personality, both of them:laughing: (also appreciated that they had Jeff's SE for deep edges... just like I loved how that they had used him in those old ISU tutorials about transitions) eta: also loved use of Stephane for composition (OT: was Stephan who did choreo for Tomoe's Blue Danube? 'cause I love it)

 

anyway, watching those seminars I feel very keenly that Yuzu gets shortchanged a lot for many of those criteria...not that I didn't know already, but it's always painful when you realize that ISU people know the theory but seems to be severly lacking in application...

like for the variety/contrast in movements/energy, Yuzuru has that in every program and not just as a change of pace of the music but in the way he performs...

heck, after Origin 3F3T for example, I dare any judge not to friggin' see that there is big contrast happening right there, and the amazing thing is that Yuzuru doesn't need big breaks, he doesn't need to use a spin or to stop or insert noises here and there to tell "hey, heads up guys, I'm changing pace!", his body is just attuned to the music and the change just happens, and it doesn't feel contrieved...

or LGC, which is high energy but still has noticeable changes...Yuzu starts out almost lazy (well, like a confident predator sure of his charm-lazy, but still), then the demonic pace picks up and everyone goes crazy

(on a second thought, maybe judges do need a "heads up guys! I'm changing pace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"):facepalm:

 

and I'm honeslty puzzled that apparently it's hard to judge components without thinking about the quads... that's IMO the easiest type of bias to correct, easier than the one about "clean programs deserve to have a bonus in all components", and certainly much easier than the one about e.g. what kind of music you like (easier to like a perf to a music you're already familiar with/close to your "taste"). I mean, if "uncultured" audience can appreciate Deniss' or Jason's performances, or the Pumpin Kings's, why it's so hard for trained judges to do the same?

 

and well, since they have repeatedly refused to have split panels to judge GOE and PCS, I refuse to feel bad for the judges, they brought their (admittedly big) workload upon themselves, in my book they've lost the right to complain or use exahustion as an excuse:shrug:

the sad thing is that judges aren't those being affected by their choice...yes they have to bear a few (not really well-paid) days of tiredness, but it's not their sweat&blood of years and their dreams that are at stake...

(ok, I might pity the officials/judges/representatives who actually made the proposal for split panels, not their fault that most of their colleagues are dumb/masochistic/prefer to have something to justify why they can't follow one standard)

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I wanted to ask if anyone knows what the hand gestures, twirling finger signals and things Yuzuru does out on the ice during practice? I've looked everywhere and I can't seem to find anyone talking about it. He does a few different signals and I think they are all to his coach? I'm unsure. Let me know if anyone does happen to know! (ps. hope i posted this in the right place!)

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3 hours ago, LadyLou said:

anyway, watching those seminars I feel very keenly that Yuzu gets shortchanged a lot for many of those criteria...not that I didn't know already, but it's always painful when you realize that ISU people know the theory but seems to be severly lacking in application...

like for the variety/contrast in movements/energy, Yuzuru has that in every program and not just as a change of pace of the music but in the way he performs...

heck, after Origin 3F3T for example, I dare any judge not to friggin' see that there is big contrast happening right there, and the amazing thing is that Yuzuru doesn't need big breaks, he doesn't need to use a spin or to stop or insert noises here and there to tell "hey, heads up guys, I'm changing pace!", his body is just attuned to the music and the change just happens, and it doesn't feel contrieved...

 

There are many aspects, where they could have mentioned Yuzu as a paramount example, but there is one particular webinar that literally screams "Hey! Reward Yuzu's effort more next time, damn you!"

 

It is the webinar about the performance component and particularly the section of the personal program choice. Yuzu's intellectual construction and analysis of the program such as his personal motivation and message behind the choice are very striking every season. Especially his involvement and emotion in Otonal and Origin last season was so blatant obvious that it should have blown the display of the scoreboard. Even the least informed commentators knew that these programs were personal tributes to Johnny and Plushy, so the judges can't tell me that they didn't know.

 

As the smart lady in the webinar mentioned: Many skaters don't have any say in their program choice and design. They have to take and convey it as their coaches and choreographers instruct them. There is only a minimum or no personal connection at all. In a program like that the involvement and emotion level can never compete with Otonal, Origin or Seimei, even if it's skated clean.

 

 

I also have to thank the lady in the webinar that she talked about the intimacy of a program. The projection of the performance doesn't have to be "big" to reach the audience's heart. It can be indeed very quiet and intimate. That doesn't minor the greatness of the program as it happened in H&L or most of Yuzu's EX galas. It doesn't have to be the big fireworks everytime to be a very good program.

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3 hours ago, Bunnybash said:

I wanted to ask if anyone knows what the hand gestures, twirling finger signals and things Yuzuru does out on the ice during practice? I've looked everywhere and I can't seem to find anyone talking about it. He does a few different signals and I think they are all to his coach? I'm unsure. Let me know if anyone does happen to know! (ps. hope i posted this in the right place!)

 

Welcome! :)

 

I think the exact meanings of all Yuzu's hand and head gestures are really only known to himself. He doesn't seem to be communicating with his coaches - more like he does it to keep track of jumps and add up points, and to help himself visualize where on the rink he's going to do things. Twirly finger usually happens when he's displeased with a jump and he's telling himself he needs to do it better/do it again. :laughing:

 

I love this fancam from the 2017 Autumn Classic, where he is clearly going over Javi's layout and calculating Javi's score as he skates (ETA: or, who knows, maybe he is going over his own skate that he just severely messed up...), with all kinds of Yuzu sign language. Point to the temple means something, nod means something, varying numbers of fingers mean something. His brain works so fast and in mysterious ways!

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9 hours ago, sallycinnamon said:

Many Global Seminar videos have been uploaded on ISU's Development Project YouTube Channel today:

 

Referre Development and Promotion: GeneralInterruption, Interruption Cases, Referee Reports, Round Table Discussions, Initial Judges MeetingDeductions, Protest,

Program Components: OverviewSkating Skills, Transitions, Peformance, CompositionInterpretation, Common Mistakes

Singles and Pairs Technical Committee - 2019/20 Updates

Ice Dance Technical Committee - 2019/20 Updates

 

I have to ask this:

Did the ISU really use YouTube clips in the composition webinar?!? Without any credits?!?

I saw the Eurosport and CBC logo with the green recording button in the corner... :facepalm:

Does the ISU have no own archive of competition videos? Seriously?

 

And how can you bring EX programs as examples for competitive scoring standards? Of course does an EX program without a bunch of quads and other requirements have more room for creativity and pure skating. Are there no competitive programs that illustrate proper composition?

 

 

@LadyLou I had to cuckle throughout the webinar how they used half of the FaOI cast as paramount examples: Plushy, Johnny, Jeff, Stephane, Cappellini/ Lanotte, Volosozhar/ Trankov... Aljona and Bruno from last year...

It felt like: Yeah, we cannot mention Yuzu in person, because he's still an active skater, so we put in all his idols and supporters to remind of him as much as we can  :embSwan:

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