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5 hours ago, axelnojutsu said:

Yes, that’s why I said I want them to actually differentiate 

But I don’t think the answer to incorrect judging is to make the rules so the judging is right

But then, according to the current rules + state of judging, bad quality "level 4 spins" will be called as such AND receive proportionally higher GOE :shrug:

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It would really be nice if they could provide actual feedback to skaters about levels and URs and stuff. Like I heard Satoko still has no idea why she keeps getting StSq3 this season??

 

Look a GPS can calculate detailed street-by-street driving directions from NYC to California in less than 10 seconds. Google can crawl the entire web in milliseconds and Amazon can tell you what you need before you realize. It's totally possible to measure stuff like rotations and steps but nope, it's still a struggle to allow USBs for music at competitions :laughing:

 

And somehow I feel like there's got to be a few figure skating fans who would do it all for free or a low cost :laughing:

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1 hour ago, yuzuangel said:

And somehow I feel like there's got to be a few figure skating fans who would do it all for free or a low cost :laughing:

Those few would rather work for Google though :P

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On 2/9/2019 at 9:53 PM, Xen said:

I was kind of curious if anyone has ever bothered to plot out the men's and ladies' PCS scores to see the normal distribution and where skaters sit on a bell curve. 

Part of the reason is to figure out what is the avg, mean and actual scores given to skaters, relative to each other, as PCS does seem to factor in skater's relative performance vis-a-vis each other. 

 

So I've gathered the data for the ladies at 4CC, taking out Brooklee Han as she WD in the long. So of the 21 skaters, my current results are:

Component Mean Median St Dev
SS 7.10 6.95 0.88
TR 6.79 6.59 0.97
PE 7.04 6.93 0.99
CO 7.08 6.89 0.93
IN 7.11 7.02 0.99

 

Sheet is here: (link)

I actually don't use excel that often anymore (there's a project software that does all these calculations for me at work), and I'm definitely not a statistician. But I thought having a good normal distribution chart, with a decent indication of where people sit on a bell curve, might give clues as to how big a factor nationality is, and evaluate (vs actual PCS guidelines) where skaters are considered ranked next to each other.  Then maybe we can start actual discussions of whether or not skaters are sitting where they should be sitting on the actual bell curve. 

I do not know if I'd use a bell curve to fit this data. There are stresses on the scores which would change the distribution... (your flowchart for instance)

On 2/25/2019 at 8:10 AM, kaeryth said:

 

Sneak peek with Dai

 


Do we know if they're going to perform a traditional play, or have they also written something new for this purpose? The latter would be even cooler.

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https://goldenskate.com/2019/03/mona-adolfsen-on-being-an-isu-judge-and-the-new-scoring-system/

 

Quote

Pre-rotated and under-rotated jumps in figure skating are a much discussed topic.

“If it is very clear that the rotation is done on the ice before the take-off, the jump is downgraded and evaluated using the scale of values for the jump of one rotation less,” Adolfsen explained. “The position of the toe pick/skating blade on the take-off is considered here, not the body position as some may believe. The position of the blade where the toe pick hits the ice is considered to assess whether the jump is under-rotated or not.”

“We cannot see the jumps in slow motion, otherwise there will soon be many jumps to be considered and may be downgraded,” she continued. “Again, there are small margins, and here it has been decided that it must be visible in normal speed to consider whether the jump is pre-rotated or not. The rule for pre-rotations is not as strict as for landing of jumps as it is physically impossible to not have any pre-rotation.”

 

But it's not :13877886:

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I spent some time looking at GOE scoring in preparation for worlds, specifically Yuzu versus Nathan's raw GOE marks. Here's what I found:

 

(this is all GP circuit-only data)

 

Yuzuru Hanyu average raw GOE: 2.56
Nathan Chen average raw GOE: 1.98
Difference: 0.58

 

I went ahead and looked at what the average GOEs were if we excluded negative GOEs as well (so in other words, how do they score when they don't screw up)

Yuzuru Hanyu average raw GOE (positive only): 3.44
Nathan Chen average raw GOE (positive only): 2.94

I also looked specifically at positive quad jumps and 3As, since the bulk of actual GOE points are earned on those elements. What I found was interesting:

Yuzuru Hanyu average raw GOE (clean quads/3As): 3.54
Nathan Chen average raw GOE (clean quads/3As): 2.48
Difference: 1.06

That's a huge difference! (but imo completely right, Yuzu's jumps *are* at least 1 point better than Nathans :angrypooh:) But what if we look only at top scoring big jumps?

Yuzu:
4T (GPRUS FS) - 4.44
4S (GPRUS SP) - 4.33
4S (GPFIN SP) - 4.33
3A (GPRUS SP) - 4.11
4S (GPRUS FS) - 3.78

average: 4.20

Nathan:
4F (GPF FS) - 3.89
4T (GPFRA FS) - 3.78
3A (GPUSA SP) - 3.67
4F (GPF SP) - 3.44
4T-3T (GPF FS) - 3.33

average: 3.62

difference: 0.58

 

More modest, but the difference is still clear. But moreover, this means my assumptions when I was analyzing a hypothetical Yuzu versus Nathan head-to-head are pretty good, and if anything underestimate Yuzu. The conclusions of that analysis were:

 

1. Yuzu wins handily over Nathan if Yuzu does the Helsinki layout and Nathan does the Nats layout and they're both clean

2. Yuzu squeaks a victory over Nathan (but imo it's pretty much a statistical dead heat) if Nathan adds 4S and they're both clean

 

so nope, Johnny, clean Nathan is not unbeatable.

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2 hours ago, shanshani said:

so nope, Johnny, clean Nathan is not unbeatable. 

Does anyone in their right mind believe this anyway? I can make several stastically unlikely assumptions and conclude that Slavik Hayrapetyan will be WC 2019. Hardly a shock that Weir hasn't taken a 5th grade course in mathematics.

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8 hours ago, shanshani said:

Yuzu:
4T (GPRUS FS) - 4.44
4S (GPRUS SP) - 4.33
4S (GPFIN SP) - 4.33
3A (GPRUS SP) - 4.11
4S (GPRUS FS) - 3.78

Nathan:
4F (GPF FS) - 3.89
4T (GPFRA FS) - 3.78
3A (GPUSA SP) - 3.67
4F (GPF SP) - 3.44
4T-3T (GPF FS) - 3.33

 

I altered the form you made for judging to calculate raw GOE (I have 3 versions of your form now, lol) and checked the factored GOE's against ISU protocols.  I'm not sure if my form is off or yours is but I have a few minor quibbles with your numbers.  I got:

 

Yuzu:
4T (GPRUS FS) - 4.57
4S (GPRUS SP) - 4.43
4S (GPFIN SP) - 4.43
3A (GPRUS SP) - 4.14 
4S (GPRUS FS) - 3.71

Nathan:
4F (GPF FS) - 4
4T (GPFRA FS) - 3.72
3A (GPUSA SP) - 3.71
4F (GPF SP) - 3.43
4T-3T (GPF FS) - 3.43

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bz2lk-wF5FlI16_lmgUFfL85MmI_DS7M7AKIjE6fW6E/edit?usp=sharing

(I was using this sheet to see how they would have scored if they didn't make mistakes so some of the GOE's/levels are altered.  Also, I didn't attempt a formula for the choreo sequence so I just estimate and manually enter those)

 

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1 hour ago, Old Cat Lady said:

 

I altered the form you made for judging to calculate raw GOE (I have 3 versions of your form now, lol) and checked the factored GOE's against ISU protocols.  I'm not sure if my form is off or yours is but I have a few minor quibbles with your numbers.  I got:

 

Yuzu:
4T (GPRUS FS) - 4.57
4S (GPRUS SP) - 4.43
4S (GPFIN SP) - 4.43
3A (GPRUS SP) - 4.14 
4S (GPRUS FS) - 3.71

Nathan:
4F (GPF FS) - 4
4T (GPFRA FS) - 3.72
3A (GPUSA SP) - 3.71
4F (GPF SP) - 3.43
4T-3T (GPF FS) - 3.43

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bz2lk-wF5FlI16_lmgUFfL85MmI_DS7M7AKIjE6fW6E/edit?usp=sharing

(I was using this sheet to see how they would have scored if they didn't make mistakes so some of the GOE's/levels are altered.  Also, I didn't attempt a formula for the choreo sequence so I just estimate and manually enter those)

 

were you using the trimmed mean? I just used the straight mean of all the judges (as in, I didn't remove the highest and lowest GOE judges from my calculations)

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51 minutes ago, shanshani said:

were you using the trimmed mean? I just used the straight mean of all the judges (as in, I didn't remove the highest and lowest GOE judges from my calculations)

 

Ahh. That would explain it.  Well, I guess that just means we have some extra data.

 

eta: btw, using the trimmed mean puts it slightly more in Yuzu's favor.  

Yuzu's average = 4.256

Nathan's average = 3.658

Difference = .598

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4 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

:unsure:

 

That was my reaction too.  I was griping about that for weeks.  Tuk stalks half the rink to do a huge, beautiful triple axel and she gets 0-2 GOE (as she should considering the long prep deduction).  Nate stalks half the rink to do a tiny 3 axel and judges throw a bunch of 4's at him :rolleyes:

 

And Nate's fans are still talking about how the Skate America panel was tougher than any of the other ones

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