General Skating Chat

[Danibellerika]

45 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Mikhail Kolyada is also bringing in a 4Lz and his is gonna be huge! Just hope he lands it more often now than last season. 

 

To be quite honest, when I saw him do it even with a fall in the free I was like O_O. The attempt itself is impressive to see.

 

1 hour ago, CupidsBow said:

As for scoring getting harsher in any way this season? Lol no, I don't see it. Any really obvious mistakes might get called but unless someone is going into a jump really obviously forwards or landing really obviously forwards I don;t think we're going to see many downgrades. Edge calls? Maybe. If Patrick is bringing in a 4F and has very clean entry on it, it might knock down the GOE awarded to less great attempts, and if Yuzu does bring a good 4lz I think the novelty will wear off, more edge calls might be made and, because there's more to compare against, GOE will be awarded a touch less generously for attempts. Same goes for the 4lo if Javi adds it. With these jumps being less of a new shiny thing and more skaters trying them, I think the judging will settle.

But harsher judging in general? No way. It's Olympic season, there's a greater audience of people paying attention to sports they usually ignore. Big scores get media attention. Media attention promotes the sport. If the mens are events are anything like Worlds, they can get a lot of media hype and casual audiences attention. Perfect for promoting to sport and trying to attract new fans and the money that brings. Judging might tighten up after the olympics but it sure as hell won't before. I just wish it was a bit more even and the overlap between PCS and TES was less pronounced. Certain skaters should not be getting 9s in PCS just because they landed difficult jumps when jumps are rewarded in TES. Unbalanced programs where the elements feel disconnected from each other and nothing relates to the music should not be getting high 8s or low/mid 9's in PCS. 

In the same vein, I do get a feeling Boyang's rep as having poor skating skills/poor PCS eats into his GOE as well. Hopefully his 4lz will get what it deserves soon

 

I totally agree.

[katonice]

6 hours ago, meoima said:

OK so I have just heard some ridiculous comments the entry of some jumps. Normally I would ignore it but I am afraid if there is no clear analysis, many people might have believed such FALSE and MISLEADING remarks. 

 

So that person claims that Shoma Uno's transitions before the 4lo is the most difficult entry. He said that Shoma Uno did Rocker RBO-RFO into a  FO-RBO counter before the 4lo. I have to say it's totally wrong. He even compared Shoma Uno's entry before the Loop to Evegenia Medvedeva's crazy entry before her Solo 3Loop in the short program. 

 

I have noticed many people believe that person. I write this post because I do not want them to spread the wrong information around too widely. I want to make it straight.

 

First, simple definition of the turns in figure skating: http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/163644861710/please-enjoy-some-videos-about-the-6-one-foot

This one is very good: http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/162905929409/turns-and-steps-explained-12

 

Second, please use the super slow motion before the jumps in these fancam:

Zhenia's 3Lo entry https://youtu.be/LqhOqRukNNU?t=1m55s

Shoma's 4lo's entry https://youtu.be/dWKrE7cbPsg?t=6m32

 

Third, let me break it down.

 

1) Zhenia's entry before solo 3lo: Right back outside edge - counter - Right forward outside edge - Change of edge to inside edge into 3 turn - 3lo (forward inside edge 3 turn backward outside edge 3 loop). Oh and Zhenia also did a counter after the 3lo so she was doing Counter - 3lo - counter!!! That's crazy! (and Yuzuru will do counter 3A counter in the Chopin 3.0, it seems he likes this move Zhenia owns).

Here is the slow motion of her entry https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2x6lKiyto-8WG5oSVFySnVndjg/view

 

The whole sequence was done one 1 foot. I draw it out here, sorry for the bad drawing: http://imgur.com/OfMMY5A

I have to say, it is very easy to pick out the move Zhenia does on the ice. Everything she does (aside from her Flutz) is quite clear and easy to see. It is very clean and neat. In short, very clear to the judges. It is very easy to give her good GOE because it's so neat to the eyes. 

 

2) Shoma's entry before the solo 4lo. This one is very tricky because the edge was unclear. The "expert" who we might all have known claimed that Shoma did a rocker into a counter. Let me explain why it's wrong. Because with rocker/counter, you have to move from one curve to another (see the 2 tumblr posts above explaining the turns). With Shoma Uno, THERE WAS NO move from ONE CURVE TO ANOTHER CURVE.

 

Here is the slow motion of the whole entry Shoma did https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2x6lKiyto-8N2k2Q3J6QTQtV3c/view

 

The edge Shoma did after the turn was very unclear, it was like he could not maintain/control the edge. So he was skating half on the flat edge (or maybe outside a bit because it was very unstable) but I would say he aims for the inside edge. Shoma goes into the 4Loop by Forward inside edge 3 turn backward outside edge - Loop (it's the fundamental for all the Loop jump). I drew the whole sequence here. http://imgur.com/c6PuuZQ

 

In the video of WTT FS, some people might think Shoma did a rocker (from RBO to RFO) but there was no clear curve 1 to curve 2. Unlike, with Evgenia Medvedeva, you can see the curve she does very clearly.

 

I also asked another coach and we came to a conclusion that, after the RBO turn which is unclear if it's a 3 turn that he failed or a rocker that he failed, Shoma Uno skates on the inside edge, substitutes the left leg and moves to the back on two legs then goes straight into the 4lo. We count it as 3 turn because it's on the same curve. 

 

3) What baffles me was that person claimed Zhenia Med did a rocker into counter, then later he claimed she did two counter and claimed that Shoma did rocker - counter into 4lo. And I was like: Where is the counter where is the rocker??????? My friend re-watched the video over and over again with the same question. 

 

My advice: If you have to trust anyone with the tech analysis, please take whatever that comment says as JUST a reference. I would never trust the technical comment from someone who claimed 2 foot move as a counter.

Thanks for explaining this. I learn something new everyday. 

 

Shoma's entry does look like a 3-turn, even for someone like me who struggles to remember the differences between all these different turns lol. How did that person come up with something so complex to describe it? 

 

And woah Zhenya. Her transitions are really something aren't they?

[meoima]

45 minutes ago, katonice said:

Thanks for explaining this. I learn something new everyday. 

 

Shoma's entry does look like a 3-turn, even for someone like me who struggles to remember the differences between all these different turns lol. How did that person come up with something so complex to describe it? 

 

And woah Zhenya. Her transitions are really something aren't they?

I think the intention that Shoma wanted to do was a Rocker - 3 turn, but he executed it not well enough. That's why it turned into a 3 turn - 3 turn. Even with rocker - 3 turn - 4 loop, I wouldn't call it the most difficult entry before 4Loop ever. 

 

Let's take a look at a much more difficult entry that Yuzuru does:  spread eagle RBO/LFO – cross roll RBO/LBO – change of foot RBO - 4 Lo (and a spread eagle after that).

 

What's so great about Yuzuru's transitions in and out of his jumps (and Zhenia's transitions too) is that you can reverse the order and the elements will still look the same. 

 

As for Zhenia, I love that her turns are so clear and neat, if I were judging in competition, I would give her good GOE too, because I can see clearly everything to give points.

 

I quite like the counter 3Loop counter she is doing. In my opinion, Yuzuru might have liked it as he will do counter 3A counter! It's a very nice contrast. 

[fluffypooh]

2 minutes ago, meoima said:

I think the intention that Shoma wanted to do was a Rocker - 3 turn, but he executed it not well enough. That's why it turned into a 3 turn - 3 turn

 

As for Zhenia, I love that her turns are so clear and neat, if I were judging in competition, I would give her good GOE too, because I can see clearly everything to give points.

 

I quite like the counter 3Loop counter she is doing. In my opinion, Yuzuru might have liked it as he will do counter 3A counter! It's a very nice contrast. 

So how would u compare Zhenia's turn to Yuzu's? 

sorry don't know much about it still

[meoima]

4 minutes ago, fluffypooh said:

So how would u compare Zhenia's turn to Yuzu's? 

sorry don't know much about it still

They both start their elements with a counter and end it with a counter. While Yuzuru prefers to use counter with the 3A, Zhenia uses it with the 3Lo.

 

Yuzuru's counter 3A counter is the most difficult in my opinion.

Too bad Zhenia isn't that excellent at the Axel to do the same. It's very legit to say her transition sequence in and out of the 3Lo is exquisite.

[fluffypooh]

20 minutes ago, meoima said:

They both start their elements with a counter and end it with a counter. While Yuzuru prefers to use counter with the 3A, Zhenia uses it with the 3Lo.

 

Yuzuru's counter 3A counter is the most difficult in my opinion.

Too bad Zhenia isn't that excellent at the Axel to do the same. It's very legit to say her transition sequence in and out of the 3Lo is exquisite.

 

I see that 3A is more difficult. But u were saying Zhenia's turns are clear n neat, so I am wondering if Yuzu's turns are less clear . We always try to compare skating skills among the guys, it would be interesting to know how it compare to the ladies, since Zhenia was also breaking records. 

[meoima]

38 minutes ago, fluffypooh said:

 

I see that 3A is more difficult. But u were saying Zhenia's turns are clear n neat, so I am wondering if Yuzu's turns are less clear . We always try to compare skating skills among the guys, it would be interesting to know how it compare to the ladies, since Zhenia was also breaking records. 

Yuzuru often has very good turns, his edge is sharp and clear. However, he does everything VERY FAST. So it makes it harder to judge him as we have to follow his crazy speed. I would say Zhenia is slower and easier to see how she does things. 

Yuzuru at his best he maintain great speed across the program. Zhenia is not the fastest lady, even though she also maintains ok speed across the program. One thing for sure, she definitely is not as fast as Yuzuru. 

I would say Zhenia has better basic skating skills than some male skaters whom I cost so much time to identify their turns and steps. 

[katonice]

1 hour ago, meoima said:

I think the intention that Shoma wanted to do was a Rocker - 3 turn, but he executed it not well enough. That's why it turned into a 3 turn - 3 turn. Even with rocker - 3 turn - 4 loop, I wouldn't call it the most difficult entry before 4Loop ever. 

 

Let's take a look at a much more difficult entry that Yuzuru does:  spread eagle RBO/LFO – cross roll RBO/LBO – change of foot RBO - 4 Lo (and a spread eagle after that).

 

What's so great about Yuzuru's transitions in and out of his jumps (and Zhenia's transitions too) is that you can reverse the order and the elements will still look the same. 

 

As for Zhenia, I love that her turns are so clear and neat, if I were judging in competition, I would give her good GOE too, because I can see clearly everything to give points.

 

I quite like the counter 3Loop counter she is doing. In my opinion, Yuzuru might have liked it as he will do counter 3A counter! It's a very nice contrast. 

I see. Looking at it more closely I can see at what point it could have been mistaken for a rocker.

Right after he turns from the RBO it did seem for a moment he would go into a RFO, but actually it became a RFI.

There is definitely no counter there though, even an "imminent" one you might mistake one for.

 

(And P.S. I am enjoying looking at this slo-mos. I really want to learn to identify all these different turns, and these slo-mos help a lot.)

 

 

[Danibellerika]

I did notice that Yuzu gets around the ice at a nice clip, even in competition.  And he has great ice coverage, though maybe I'm biased because he hit that gorgeous 4 Loop and 4 sal/3 toe so close to me so he gave me some memorable moments on my end/corner.  He also maintains speed very well. I didn't notice him running out of gas at the end. You can tell in person quite easily when you're seeing them back to back to back...

[cirelle]

So we're not the only ones discussing Shoma's jumps right now - I wonder if this is the precursor to feds getting into it? 

 

ETA: Those of you who know more about figure skating than me, what's your take?

[Murieleirum]

His tweet there is quite confusing for anyone who's not really an expert, like myself... but in the comments below he does say, regarding Shoma's quad Flip, that it's not pre-rotated. It's just a 'messy tap'.

 

[Sombreuil]

10 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

His tweet there is quite confusing for anyone who's not really an expert, like myself... but in the comments below he does say, regarding Shoma's quad Flip, that it's not pre-rotated. It's just a 'messy tap'.

 

Is that an 'industry term' ?.

[Murieleirum]

Just now, Sombreuil said:

Is that an 'industry term' ?.

 

Seems like it. I'd like to hear what Ambesi has to say about it 

[Sombreuil]

Absolutely 

[Neenah]

I have been following the discussion for a while now on GS and then here (and even tumblr), and it is getting more and more confusing. I thought that counting rotations, pre-rotation, and under rotation were an agreed upon thing since they were in the official rules but now I don't know what to think anymore  

 

And thank you very much Jackie Wong‏ for introducing a new term to the discussion, things weren't confusing enough as it is