General Skating Chat

[Katt]

2 minutes ago, FlyingCamel said:

Wonder how all these will affect Yuzu... if anything 4Lo, 4F and 4Lz having the same base value would work in his favour I guess? And also now the fact that there is a larger difference between 4Lz and 4A BV although I still think 4A should have an even higher BV

Its just 0,5 points so not really much difference. A 4lo+4lz still worth 22 points. 

[SitTwizzle]

The optimist would see the glass half full : Lutz, Loop and Flip now have the same base value, as many had asked for previously, they being equally difficult jumps depending on the skaters; and this base value makes them 1.5 point under the 4A (though, adding BV of two of the previous jumps, as the two best Men jumpers now do in a FS, would maybe not make a change?) instead of 1 previously — yet this 4A base value remains a joke, clearly set to abate Yuzuru Hanyu and try to prevent him showing his utter superiority, even as a jumper alone. It should be at least 15 (they don't know him). Some Russian girls accused of disguising 4Lo into 4Lz may return to 4Lo (well, at least Plushenko won't miss such an occasion to announce a World's First for Ladies with his new pupil, or he is really out of his mind).

The pessimist would see the glass half empty : they have created even more room for unfair BV and GOEs.

The wild optimist would believe they will implement a way of measuring these q, < and << (and prerotation) accurately.

 

Edit : on the pessimist side too, they have done nothing to spin base value. Don't you think there should be a level 5, with complex arm movements?

[FlyingCamel]

@SitTwizzle if you’re talking about Sasha, I don’t think she can do 4Lo yet! She definitely wants to though. In one of her recent zoom interviews she mentioned that she wants to start training it but is unable to... can’t remember why but it was something about the harness not being available because it was being used by other skaters or something like that? 

[Paskud]

16 minutes ago, Katt said:

Its just 0,5 points so not really much difference. A 4lo+4lz still worth 22 points. 

but goe factors are different

[airi]

In theory that's good... I don't believe they will use this rules as they should, but that's the general story of any changes they make, unless the revolution happens (it will not).

 

BV changes are good for quads, at least with how most skaters perform "4Lz" and how mechanics of Loop make it so hard to make it a quad... It hurts to see 3Lz with the same BV as 3F, because imo the true Lutz is really so much harder than Flip... (it can be different for some skaters but generally I really think Lutz is harder...) But anyway, not many do true Lutz anyway, so... eh.

[Veveco]

And aside from falls we still don't know what a serious error is... 

[fay_with_luv]

ISU:

"Difficult entrance and/or difficult exit are part of the spin and have an impact on the GOE of the element." 

(page 10 of ISU Communication 2324)

 

Also ISU:

"1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying spin)
3) effortless throughout
4) maintaining a centered spin
5) creativity and/or originality
6) element matches the music"

(page 6 of ISU Communication 2324)

[Sombreuil]

I don’t think there’s much point getting too worked up about anything apart from possibly BV as the judges seem to do whatever they want with impunity. 

[amylance1215]

This sums up the "q" matter nicely. I want to do just that at ISU 

 

[Paskud]

23 minutes ago, fay_with_luv said:

ISU:

"Difficult entrance and/or difficult exit are part of the spin and have an impact on the GOE of the element." 

(page 10 of ISU Communication 2324)

 

Also ISU:

"1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying spin)
3) effortless throughout
4) maintaining a centered spin
5) creativity and/or originality
6) element matches the music"

(page 6 of ISU Communication 2324)

Well, from what I understand, entries and exits are part of a spin and their execution may affect GOE bullets like 3, 5 or 6.

[azelais]

I feel like they're keeping 4A BV low in the same way that the International Gymnastics Federation set the value of Simone Biles' new moves low to dissuade her and other gymnasts from doing them for "safety reasons."

 

The words of Simone, "Am I in a league of my own? Yes. But that doesn’t mean you can’t credit me for what I’m doing," apply heavily to Yuzu too 

[Henni147]

3 hours ago, SitTwizzle said:

The optimist would see the glass half full : Lutz, Loop and Flip now have the same base value, as many had asked for previously, they being equally difficult jumps depending on the skaters; and this base value makes them 1.5 point under the 4A (though, adding BV of two of the previous jumps, as the two best Men jumpers now do in a FS, would maybe not make a change?) instead of 1 previously — yet this 4A base value remains a joke, clearly set to abate Yuzuru Hanyu and try to prevent him showing his utter superiority, even as a jumper alone. It should be at least 15 (they don't know him). Some Russian girls accused of disguising 4Lo into 4Lz may return to 4Lo (well, at least Plushenko won't miss such an occasion to announce a World's First for Ladies with his new pupil, or he is really out of his mind).

The pessimist would see the glass half empty : they have created even more room for unfair BV and GOEs.

The wild optimist would believe they will implement a way of measuring these q, < and << (and prerotation) accurately.

 

Edit : on the pessimist side too, they have done nothing to spin base value. Don't you think there should be a level 5, with complex arm movements?

 

You have to see it from the bright side:

1. Yuzu's chance to become the first skater to land it is very high now (if he can do it). It seems that from the initial 4A race with Keegan, Dmitriev and others only Yuzu is left, who is still doing serious attempts.

2. The chance that the first quad Axel in competition will be performed with high quality and with a program that's worthy of this historical moment is very high, too. This is what makes me happy the most.

 

Edit: After all the hard work Yuzu has already put into his 4A practice, I don't think that BV changes or other games on the scoresheet will stop him. The 4A is his childhood dream and it would be a prestigious milestone for the entire sport.

 

I'm really curious how the judging will develop. Yuzu's technically brilliant 4Lo and 4Lz at Torino GPF weren't really showered with max GOE and I don't expect major changes in the future. But at least his 4Lo can catch up in the BV and SOV now. This is important.

 

Edit: It's so funny: all the rule changes (reward quality over quantity, reward difficult entries,...) and the summer webinars seem to follow exactly Yuzu's skating philosophy, but when these rules are applied in competition, the judges turn everything against him.

[Neenah]

While I am certain that the TPs and judges will do whatever they want anyway regardless of the rules, I am happy with the changes made. The ISU are acknowledging the issues in the sport that we have been discussing for a while now. This is always a good thing and I will be an optimist on this one and hope that the next step will be accountability for the judges. The rules are good and they are addressing problems one by one. Hopefully they will finally look at the judges and fix that problem as well.

 

[Henni147]

I suggest a drinking game for the next season:

 

For every 4Tq on the scoresheet we sip a quadruple Tequila.

[SitTwizzle]

1 hour ago, Henni147 said:

I suggest a drinking game for the next season:

 

For every 4Tq on the scoresheet we sip a quadruple Tequila.

Half a tequila and we are soon drunk.

Or may we asset different values for a correct 4Tq and for a wrong one, either to avoid a << to a favoured skater, or to lower GOEs of perfectly rotated jumps of Yuzuru Hanyu's?