General Skating Chat

[Altie]

4 hours ago, Sombreuil said:

I too would love to see something like this.  I've seen two documentaries about Uchimura,  one about how he altered his rings technique in order to make it onto the 2010 Olympic team (got silver in the AA with an injured ankle- sound familiar?) and the second an amazing one where they analysed his technique using things like motion capture, MRI scans and putting him in a jet fighter simulator and comparing his reactions with those of other gymnasts.  I don't understand Japanese but they used lots of diagrams and slo motion highlighted sequences so you got the gist.   I've always hoped they would do the same for Yuzuru as he is as much of an outlier in skating as Uchimura is in gymnastics, but I suppose it would be hard to do when he doesn't train in Japan.  It was also a bit over dramatic in places but very interesting.

 

sorry to be of topic, but that sounds really interesting - do you have a link, by any chance ?

[Sombreuil]

Well I'm useless at this and have no idea how to link stuff. However.... they are on YouTube.

 

The early documentary is posted by mkjgt 353 - it's 2008 and then his name *in kanji along with some other words- it's about 9th in that persons list and has 42k views- the picture is one of his coach holding his head and presumably trying to get something across to him!

 

The really interesting one is posted in several parts by yuyu 8608 titled Kohei Uchimura 1-1 through to 1-4 and it's of a programme called 'Miracle bodies'.

 

* it's not his name - must be the title of the documentary- good job I'm getting my eyes tested next week.  I'm procrastinating- there are loads of things I should be doing but I've been watching skating and gymnastics instead 

 

 

 

[fireovertheice]

Did you see this piece of CBC? It's focused mostly at the beginning on Chen called as the skater who made history with his 5 quads FS and a "game changer" for the next Oly (and this is also the title, that is sort of super-hyping him...). But in the lenght of the video they speak about other skaters and Yuzu too: he is showed in association with Chen as the guys with multiple quads vs. skaters like Brown and Chan, who have no quad o a reduced number of them.

Underline is the usual them of quads and technique vs. "artistry and style" (this is literal from the video) IMO. Your thoughts about this and the reasons by CBC publishing  a video like that 4 days ago?

 

 

 

[Sayu93]

39 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

Did you see this piece of CBC? It's focused mostly at the beginning on Chen called as the skater who made history with his 5 quads FS and a "game changer" for the next Oly (and this is also the title, that is sort of super-hyping him...). But in the lenght of the video they speak about other skaters and Yuzu too: he is showed in association with Chen as the guys with multiple quads vs. skaters like Brown and Chan, who have no quad o a reduced number of them.

Underline is the usual them of quads and technique vs. "artistry and style" (this is literal from the video) IMO. Your thoughts about this and the reasons by CBC publishing  a video like that 4 days ago?

 

 

 

I gave it a thumps down (couldn't watch it whole with all the hyping) 

[beki]

I think it’s false advertising and revisionist history. Yuzu takes pains to specifically credit Boyang Jin for starting the trend. And Boyang’s quad success inspired his world record performances which still set the standard for men’s skating.

 

There is this idea that Nathan can combine base value and PCS more perfectly than either Yuzu or Boyang. I’ll believe it only when I see it.

 

And despite his imperfect technique, I have a gut feeling Shoma might be the one who can handle Olympic pressure better.

[kaeryth]

There's no thread for the European Championships yet but what do you guys think of this? (requiring a quad to be landed in competition for the skater to be entered for Euros)

 

 

[EisElle]

My, my, Canada really has a troubled relationship with Yuzuru

 

For a video meant for general audience, it isn't that bad imo and that part where Yuzuru is mentioned as "one likely having multiple quads in his oly program" could be totally harmless and maybe it only rings... suspicious (I'm channeling my inner Ted Burton's graciousness here) in my ears because I'm quite distrustful these days...

 

My distrustful self doesn't quite like the way Yuzu is dragged into the video, tho. I get it, the quadsters vs artists is a narrative that is easy to understand for who doesn't follow the sport that much...but why, oh why do you drag Yuzuru there, when he is exactly the magical unicorn that can blend both?

I get that, Shoma is less renowned in Canada (tho he won Skate Canada only a few month ago landing his multiple quads) and poor Boyang is always forgotten by everyone, and it's true that Yuzu has more quads than, say, Patrick... but Yuzu is clumped with Nathan vs Jason and Patrick, who focus "more" on artistry...implied: hence these guys are more"artistic", while the other two...not so much. They focus on quads, and the quads can carry them to gold and they don't need to bring the artistry (this is the subtext from my distrustful self, it could be wrong, tho). You couple that with some shade they throw in passing at judges' scoring, and the video becomes like a diss to Yuzu's status of all-round skater and pisses me off  suggests that Yuzu is a pure quadster like Nathan (with all due respect to what Nathan does) and his strategy is "kill 'em all with your quads". Which is so.atrociously.WRONG!

I wonder why they made that piece in that way, and WHO did it.(this is me chasing the culprit)

Couldn't they ask for an opinion from their own skating commentators?

Now that darn NYT article really looks like gold... it's so funny how two different countries tell the same story: USA basically says "Nathan has it all, Yuzuru wants to have all the quads but he'd better stick to what he can do, some quads ain't for him" while for Canada now "Nathan has only quads and, hey, Yuzuru has the quads too, so he must be a quadster, so no artistry, can't be any other way, uh, 'cause we don't know what this Semei is. Hope&Legacy? Never heard of that" )

 

Also, to go for "artistry and style" (translated: components, I guess, but it's too much to ask for a bit of proper terminology, when even so called experts still confuse the two) can bring you only so far (even in an ideal world where judges give no quad bonus on PCS and GOE), if you have a BV gap that is too large. It's called maths. And the sad truth is, if you are left too much behind, you can't aim for podium (or you have to rely on others bombing, which of course can happen, and that's why quadless Misha got his GP medal in an event with lots of skaters with way higer BV and multiple quads).

btw, this is why the "total package" skater has more chances to be on top (in an ideal world)

 

I guess they are trying to prepare their audience to the chance of Patrick being left out of podium, which for people who know nothing of the evolution of the sport since Sochi might be a surprise (I remember I was kind of when I found out Plushenko wasn't the favourite for Sochi)

Of course, no one cares about the non-NA guy who landed the first 4Lz3T and actually did the first 4 quads program back in 2015-2016. At the beginning of last season there were already many guys going for 4 quads, before Nathan decided to #Yolo his Nats to 5 quads and the US hype started (tho of course it's true that now he's the one pushing more with his BV... and goe and pcs higher than they should)

 

On a lighter note, sorry, but those pictures of Nathan in his skeleton costume are so amusing

and he looks really bulkier with that thing on...I wonder if it's the fabric, the design (additional tee and all) or he's really got so much more muscles in a month. Black and vertical stripes are supposed to make you look slimmer

 

Re: Shoma and Nathan vs Oly pressure

I'd say Nathan might better nerves in general, but in PyeongChang Shoma will have his senpai-shield back, so I think he will be pretty chill too

 

Re: requirement of landed quad for French skaters

I don't like it. It looks like something people complaining about too many entries in Euros would like (PHersh I'm looking at you)

imo it's unfair. If quadless skaters have the minimum TES and they placed higher than people who landed one quad, imo they should be allowed to go. Heck, it's not a requirement in international competitions, not even 3A is! And landing one quad doesn't make the chance to get a good placement at Euros any higher, if the skater fails at everything else. It doesn't make the scoring potential any higher, if you don't consider what else happens in the program. The total score should be enough for qualification, it doesn't matter if they get it with e.g. 2 3As or with one quad and one 2A.

Then what's next? To send a skater who landed a 4Lz over the one who landed 4T because 4T is so pre-Sochi?

 

And I quite like Kevin Aymoz, he is the guy who did the hydroblade-Inabauer hybrid

Now I'm sad

[liv]

That video did not bother me in the least. It was a very quick explanation of quads/tech vs. Artistry and no/ one quad and they could hardly mention everyone. I was not offended as a yuzu fan at all.  I would not waste my time worrying about. It isnt meant for figure skating fans. 

[Xen]

10 hours ago, fireovertheice said:

Did you see this piece of CBC? It's focused mostly at the beginning on Chen called as the skater who made history with his 5 quads FS and a "game changer" for the next Oly (and this is also the title, that is sort of super-hyping him...). But in the lenght of the video they speak about other skaters and Yuzu too: he is showed in association with Chen as the guys with multiple quads vs. skaters like Brown and Chan, who have no quad o a reduced number of them.

Underline is the usual them of quads and technique vs. "artistry and style" (this is literal from the video) IMO. Your thoughts about this and the reasons by CBC publishing  a video like that 4 days ago?

 

 

 

Well if you want to discuss subtext, it kind of shades both the quadsters and the "artistic" skaters, especially since the line was about how quads are great, if you can do them. If anything, it makes it look like the artistic guys are going to struggle, and a bit of side shade that they're not good enough. The positive is that they are painted as the underdogs. Somewhat funny they chose Jason as the "artist" to go with Chan, since Jason isn't going-does that mean the only "artist" remaining at Olys is going to be Chan?  Which is amusing because the other option could have been Javi. And for quadsters, they could have also chosen Boyang. For now, just let them go at it-people can always youtube videos of Yuzu and Nathan, and I think Seimei and H&L will hold up well under casual scrutiny.

 

I've debated where to put this, but this might be the most suitable place. All the media these days politicking back and forth, you can kind of see patterns. I almost want to do a game theory diagram. But seeing all these media write off Yuzu and complaints about judges potentially blocking him...I'm actually calm.

• There's no point in dragging Yuzu into your article unless you are tacitly acknowledging that he is probably the biggest contender for that middle position on the podium. Otherwise, why is it so important that he is injured, that your guy beat him in some element, compare and contrast with him etc? Yes, he is the reigning one from Sochi, but that is not sufficient enough to make him a threat if he has not performed the past couple of years-like winning GPF and 2017 WC. Why is it so important that he is injured and might have had less practice time etc? Because without those conditions he'd probably kick your fed's guy's butt?
• Part of me suspects that in each Fed or skater's mind, there is a little line that goes like this: "I want to win, but if, IF I had to lose, I could imagine losing to <insert name>." And that <insert name> would be Yuzu, especially if he's clean.
• Because Yuzu hasn't really had politicking backing him, his scores are generally less suspect to inflation (despite what some other places say). Those scores, while not the best or possibly correct ones given to him, are probably closest we'll get to "pure scores." He is a bit of a "neutral territory" that when he skates clean, we can all kind of agree that he can take first.

 

So where am I going with this? Historically, there have been political candidates who won because political infighting within parties, between parties kind of imploded and destroyed other candidates. And that "pure" /"Neutral zone" candidates becomes the default choice that everyone is okay with- due to their own merits having nothing negative. In this case, I think Yuzu is like that- he can win on his own merits when he is clean, and is kind of that type of candidate that doesn't have a blemish to really rally against, so when politicking imploding happens, he can still be safe (cause he is the default candidate everyone is okay with).  As such, the most important thing is for him just to be healthy, happy and skate contentedly.

 

Does this make any sense?

 

[katonice]

 

[Murieleirum]

31 minutes ago, katonice said:

 

 

This is amazing work!! 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

 

14 分, kichesさんが言いました:

You can only repeat two types of triples or quads. Assuming his other repeat is the 4S if he added in another 4T he would no longer have been able to also repeat the 3A. 

 

All that aside, I think 4Lz would’ve been in his plan at some point regardless of what others were doing. 

 

Ohhhh! I actually never knew that!  So you can't repeat more than two types of jump element? Even as a tack-on for combinations?

[xeyra]

9 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Think it's be a better idea to bring this over here:

 

 

Ohhhh! I actually never knew that!  So you can't repeat more than two types of any jump element? Even as a tack-on for combinations?

 

You can only repeat 2 types of triple/quad jumps twice. So if you repeat a 4T and a 3A, you cannot repeat a 4S. And vice-versa.

You can only repeat those jumps if one of them is in combination. Otherwise you get a -REP in your repeated jump and this lowers its Base Value to 70%. 

You can also only repeat two types of double jumps but they do not need to be in combination. This is why you see some ladies do two single 2As in their FS without issues. 

If you repeat a jump beyond the limitations, that jump is invalidated. Say Yuzu jumped 4S 4S3T 4T1Lo3S 4T 3A2T and then did another 3A at the end. The 3A would be invalidated. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

17 時間前, xeyraさんが言いました:

 

You can only repeat 2 types of triple/quad jumps twice. So if you repeat a 4T and a 3A, you cannot repeat a 4S. And vice-versa.

You can only repeat those jumps if one of them is in combination. Otherwise you get a -REP in your repeated jump and this lowers its Base Value to 70%. 

You can also only repeat two types of double jumps but they do not need to be in combination. This is why you see some ladies do two single 2As in their FS without issues. 

If you repeat a jump beyond the limitations, that jump is invalidated. Say Yuzu jumped 4S 4S3T 4T1Lo3S 4T 3A2T and then did another 3A at the end. The 3A would be invalidated. 

 

I see! So the only way he could insert 5 quads without sacrificing a 3A is by incorporating the 4z, just like @kiches said. Doesn't sound like he has much of a choice then, if a five-quad-two-3A layout is what he wants. Thanks vm for the splanation! ^^

[yuzupon]

the-real-xmonster's guide on jump's takeoff: toe jumps edition  ft. the top 6 men.