General Yuzuru Chat

[cinemacoconut]

8 minutes ago, micaelis said:

Of GOAT and apples and organges - Some thoughts.  Right now a lot of those on this forum are thinking about GOAT.  Is Yuzu the GOAT?  I'm going to disappoint most of you and say 'No', but I will add, 'Not Yet'.  In the article from IceNetwork above there was a good, level-headed discussion that brought out some issues that all of us have to deal with when discussing GOAT.  The first, and most importance, is historical context.  All those who might be cited as GOAT are products of their times.  Figure skating back in the late 1890s, when the first world championship was held, was very much a different sport.  I don't know if there were any jumps, but one has to realize that figure skating was an outdoor sport then.  The technology for indoor rinks had yet to be invented.  This meant that the weather had a significant impact on the skaters.  Also there was no technology for providing the music.  Even if they had music, it would likely have been a piano or a small instrumental ensemble.  When the technology became available figure-skating indoors was initially part of the summer games.  Then it joined the rest of the winter sports and became, in fact, one of the prime attractions of the winter games.  At the same time the sport was advancing as far as the creation of moves and the increase of the difficulty of established moves.  Twice during the 20th century the Olympics were canceled, due to the two World Wars. 

 

During this time there were a number of male skaters whose careers justified calling them the GOAT, with Dick Button having probably the greatest claim.  However, as one person noted, he was competing at a time when figure skating in Europe was nearly impossible due to the damage from the war and the depletion of the pool of qualified skaters and figure-skating in Asia wasn't even a distant dream.  In short, with Dick Button we are seeing essentially the 'big fish in a small pond' factor.  He certainly did not face the kind of competition that exists today.  On the other hand his record is remarkable due to the fact that he just never lost.  During his time the competition was for number 2.  But still, we have to realize the reduced nature of the competitive pool.  Today is very different.

 

So now we have Yuzu and the contemporary situation.  The sport is much changed in that compulsories are a thing of the past and there is a new scoring system in place.  It was noted that Plushenko established more records than Yuzu, but that is to be expected.  With the new scoring system starting up almost any skate had the potential to set a record back then.  There were a lot of records being set back then, I'm sure.  But since the beginning of this decade the record setting has stabilized.  The records being set now are much more significant since they are being set against a past where there are significant enough non-records to provide a valid pool of comparison.  In that sense Yuzu must be seen as truly the record-setter and we must not forget that except for Patrick's breaking Yuzu's short program record in the French GP in 2013 (which Yuzu then topped a couple weeks after) that nobody today has broken a record Yuzu has set.  There are those who have topped his recird scores, but that's only after he went and set a new record.  Eight of the twelve records Yuzu has set have involved him breaking his own records.  At least on the score issue, Yuzu is the pace-setter.  I have a feeling even Plushie would agree.

 

The major factor arguing against Yuzu's being the GOAT is his inconsistency.  Every time Yuzu takes to the ice there is the very real suspense over what he will do.  Johnny Weir, one time, when asked if Yuzu could be beat, said simply, 'Nobody can beat a perfect Yuzuru Hanyu'.  The qualifier there is 'perfect'.  The thing is that Yuzu is imperfect enough of the time to make every one of his skates a matter of high suspense.  Undoubtedly, I must say, Yuzu is definitely the greatest skater of the decade and I would even say, of the current century.  If he should go on to win a third time in Beijing, as one of the commentators stated in the IceNetwork article, there would be no doubt of his GOAT status.  That's why I'm saying 'Not yet'.  In the seasons that follow the one just completed there will be plenty of opportunities for Yuzu to show his stuff and there are two factors that I think will clinch the GOAT if he follows through on them.  One is his stated intention to compete as much as possible (dependent on his ankle condition).  The other thing is his statement that he now will not be designing his programs to win, but will instead the programs he truly wants to skate.  He'll probably still win often enough to maintain his one-to-beat ranking.  We must remember that a GOAT designation is not solely the product of wins, but rather the result of the nature of those wins.  Yuzu has won more than any other skater this decade by being the dominant quadster out there.  Sure, there are those who are doing more quads and those who have more quads in their arsenal, but as Johnny Weir put so clearly, 'It's not just the quads, it's the quality of the quads'.  Yuzu dominates in the quad competition by picking up more GOEs than the other skaters.

 

There are, however, aspects of Yuzu's ongoing career that while they may not qualify him as the GOAT certainly place him potentially as amongst the most consequential skaters of all time.  First, the new scoring rules.  I think they are the result of the figure-skating administrators seeing the quad thing getting out of control.  The imbalance that is now being seen between TES and PCS they're trying to adjust.  I don't think they've found the magic formula but they're trying.  I think a major part of that move is attributable to Yuzu.  The artistic side of his accomplishments makes those who value that aspect of figure-skating ready to do what is possible to make sure the PCS is not buried by the TES.  I don't think they've gone far enough but I really do feel that the new rules as they now exist work to Yuzu's advantage, as I've pointed out in previous posts.  Another thing is that Yuzu's fans are something never seen before in figure-skating, at least as far as I've been able to discover.  Yuzu has acquired, quite simply, rock-star status.  In Japan his picture on the covers of magazines are a guarantee of the sellout of those issues.  It's not that way around the world, but Yuzu's presence on the ice at any event, no matter what part of the world it's in, is a guaranteed sellout.  The Poohvalanches are a phenomenon never before encountered in figure-skating, indeed, in any sport.  Yuzu has redefined what athletic fandom can be (Actually, his fans have).  Add to that the heavy hint Yuzu provided this past weekend that he might attempt to redefine ice shows in the same manner he's redefining figure-skating itself, what we can see is that Yuzu might be providing a new way to define what a GOAT is, basing it on more than wins and record scores, basing it also on the effect a skater has on the culture of the sport.  In that sense I think Yuzu is already the GOAT, but I think it'll take a while before the rest of the world agrees.

 

Yuzu's status, right now, is as a claimant to the GOAT title.  There's nobody around currently who is even close to challenging Yuzu on that score.  The fact that even his harshest critics are having to go so far into the past to find those who they think challenge him for the title is itself an argument for his current stature.  One thing everyone here must recognize, though, is that the GOAT title is one that is always threatened whenever a new skating phenomenon appears.  Even if Yuzu can firmly claim the title everyone must remember that the GOAT is not etched in stone, that it only remains until the next convincing claimant comes along, and that will be the case if his record only on his competitive success.  In the annals of sport there is only one person holding a GOAT who I feel will never lose it, and that's baseball's Babe Ruth.  Why?  Most people think of him only as the supreme hitter.  No, that's not the reason.  The other is that he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time.  There are those who may exceed his achievements as a hitter, and those who do so as a pitcher, but there will never be another who'll do both.  That's security.  To a certain extent, if Yuzu successfully redefines ice shows, and then is able to put into practice theories about coaching that are actually successful (theories he's currently developing in his university studies), he actually might acquire an unassailable GOAT, as the most consequential skater of all, the one who had an effect on the rink, on the nature of ice shows, and on coaching.  If his accomplishments are found in all three, then, yes , he will be the Babe Ruth of figure-skating.

 

 

First of all I think u shld be writing articles for a figure skating magazine or Olympic Channel shld recruit u. U r One of the best writers I have ever seen. 

 

 

Secondly, did u knw if yuzu wins 3 consecutive OGM it is a feat in 94 years? 

 

Yes 94 years since the last person to do a 3 peat Olympic champ. If he wins gold in Beijing.

 

So 1 in nearly a century who achieved 3 peat is bound to be GOAT for a long long time. 

 

 

 

Thirdly, yuzus biggest rival Nathan is apparently according to Ice Network gonna study at Yale and only train with Rafael during summer hols. Thus I dnt think Nathan is very serious about Beijing Gold as much as he is serious about Yale Med School. 

 

Hes chosing to study at Yale which is very far from Rafael mostly.

 

 

So I think because of Nathans priorities for Yale, Yuzu's greatest threat to Beijing Gold will be Boyang or Shoma maybe, or some other Russian or Gogolev.

 

 

And I believe none of them stand a chance against yuzu to be honest. But yuzu is mentally tired. He is easily hurt by online antis and his ankle is ... I dnt knw.

 

 

So imo yuzu wnt go to Beijing. He can win 1 or 2 more world titles and a 4cc gold and he will still be GOAT until someone breaks his world records and does the 2 peat Olympic champ. 

[singermelodie1]

Well, yuzuru is the GOAT in my heart.

[Hydroblade]

Just now, singermelodie1 said:

Well, yuzuru is the GOAT in my heart.

🐐

[yura23]

Just now, singermelodie1 said:

Well, yuzuru is the GOAT in my heart.

[yura23]

Tbh, i think yuzu is GOAT because his impact to sport. I think its really rare to be dominated when you don't have something like majority appeal. Men figure skating always expect to be manly, crazyly charismatic and dominance like what plushy did. But yuzu's dominances when he brought something like not everyone love, something like H&L. Program like that is too quite, im sure not everyone can bring out something like that.

 

and i love his mentality. I read one post said that his mentality remind him of michael jordan. He never dominated by new comer even with all crazy races. He took it and he upgrade his game. Yuzu never stop to improve himself, and youngster really made him to upgrade his game, but still blend it with his touch

 

 

Okay i wrote too much, i just new comer here

[Neenah]

16 minutes ago, micaelis said:

Of GOAT and apples and organges - Some thoughts.  Right now a lot of those on this forum are thinking about GOAT.  Is Yuzu the GOAT?  I'm going to disappoint most of you and say 'No', but I will add, 'Not Yet'.  In the article from IceNetwork above there was a good, level-headed discussion that brought out some issues that all of us have to deal with when discussing GOAT.  The first, and most importance, is historical context.  All those who might be cited as GOAT are products of their times.  Figure skating back in the late 1890s, when the first world championship was held, was very much a different sport.  I don't know if there were any jumps, but one has to realize that figure skating was an outdoor sport then.  The technology for indoor rinks had yet to be invented.  This meant that the weather had a significant impact on the skaters.  Also there was no technology for providing the music.  Even if they had music, it would likely have been a piano or a small instrumental ensemble.  When the technology became available figure-skating indoors was initially part of the summer games.  Then it joined the rest of the winter sports and became, in fact, one of the prime attractions of the winter games.  At the same time the sport was advancing as far as the creation of moves and the increase of the difficulty of established moves.  Twice during the 20th century the Olympics were canceled, due to the two World Wars. 

 

During this time there were a number of male skaters whose careers justified calling them the GOAT, with Dick Button having probably the greatest claim.  However, as one person noted, he was competing at a time when figure skating in Europe was nearly impossible due to the damage from the war and the depletion of the pool of qualified skaters and figure-skating in Asia wasn't even a distant dream.  In short, with Dick Button we are seeing essentially the 'big fish in a small pond' factor.  He certainly did not face the kind of competition that exists today.  On the other hand his record is remarkable due to the fact that he just never lost.  During his time the competition was for number 2.  But still, we have to realize the reduced nature of the competitive pool.  Today is very different.

 

So now we have Yuzu and the contemporary situation.  The sport is much changed in that compulsories are a thing of the past and there is a new scoring system in place.  It was noted that Plushenko established more records than Yuzu, but that is to be expected.  With the new scoring system starting up almost any skate had the potential to set a record back then.  There were a lot of records being set back then, I'm sure.  But since the beginning of this decade the record setting has stabilized.  The records being set now are much more significant since they are being set against a past where there are significant enough non-records to provide a valid pool of comparison.  In that sense Yuzu must be seen as truly the record-setter and we must not forget that except for Patrick's breaking Yuzu's short program record in the French GP in 2013 (which Yuzu then topped a couple weeks after) that nobody today has broken a record Yuzu has set.  There are those who have topped his recird scores, but that's only after he went and set a new record.  Eight of the twelve records Yuzu has set have involved him breaking his own records.  At least on the score issue, Yuzu is the pace-setter.  I have a feeling even Plushie would agree.

 

The major factor arguing against Yuzu's being the GOAT is his inconsistency.  Every time Yuzu takes to the ice there is the very real suspense over what he will do.  Johnny Weir, one time, when asked if Yuzu could be beat, said simply, 'Nobody can beat a perfect Yuzuru Hanyu'.  The qualifier there is 'perfect'.  The thing is that Yuzu is imperfect enough of the time to make every one of his skates a matter of high suspense.  Undoubtedly, I must say, Yuzu is definitely the greatest skater of the decade and I would even say, of the current century.  If he should go on to win a third time in Beijing, as one of the commentators stated in the IceNetwork article, there would be no doubt of his GOAT status.  That's why I'm saying 'Not yet'.  In the seasons that follow the one just completed there will be plenty of opportunities for Yuzu to show his stuff and there are two factors that I think will clinch the GOAT if he follows through on them.  One is his stated intention to compete as much as possible (dependent on his ankle condition).  The other thing is his statement that he now will not be designing his programs to win, but will instead the programs he truly wants to skate.  He'll probably still win often enough to maintain his one-to-beat ranking.  We must remember that a GOAT designation is not solely the product of wins, but rather the result of the nature of those wins.  Yuzu has won more than any other skater this decade by being the dominant quadster out there.  Sure, there are those who are doing more quads and those who have more quads in their arsenal, but as Johnny Weir put so clearly, 'It's not just the quads, it's the quality of the quads'.  Yuzu dominates in the quad competition by picking up more GOEs than the other skaters.

 

There are, however, aspects of Yuzu's ongoing career that while they may not qualify him as the GOAT certainly place him potentially as amongst the most consequential skaters of all time.  First, the new scoring rules.  I think they are the result of the figure-skating administrators seeing the quad thing getting out of control.  The imbalance that is now being seen between TES and PCS they're trying to adjust.  I don't think they've found the magic formula but they're trying.  I think a major part of that move is attributable to Yuzu.  The artistic side of his accomplishments makes those who value that aspect of figure-skating ready to do what is possible to make sure the PCS is not buried by the TES.  I don't think they've gone far enough but I really do feel that the new rules as they now exist work to Yuzu's advantage, as I've pointed out in previous posts.  Another thing is that Yuzu's fans are something never seen before in figure-skating, at least as far as I've been able to discover.  Yuzu has acquired, quite simply, rock-star status.  In Japan his picture on the covers of magazines are a guarantee of the sellout of those issues.  It's not that way around the world, but Yuzu's presence on the ice at any event, no matter what part of the world it's in, is a guaranteed sellout.  The Poohvalanches are a phenomenon never before encountered in figure-skating, indeed, in any sport.  Yuzu has redefined what athletic fandom can be (Actually, his fans have).  Add to that the heavy hint Yuzu provided this past weekend that he might attempt to redefine ice shows in the same manner he's redefining figure-skating itself, what we can see is that Yuzu might be providing a new way to define what a GOAT is, basing it on more than wins and record scores, basing it also on the effect a skater has on the culture of the sport.  In that sense I think Yuzu is already the GOAT, but I think it'll take a while before the rest of the world agrees.

 

Yuzu's status, right now, is as a claimant to the GOAT title.  There's nobody around currently who is even close to challenging Yuzu on that score.  The fact that even his harshest critics are having to go so far into the past to find those who they think challenge him for the title is itself an argument for his current stature.  One thing everyone here must recognize, though, is that the GOAT title is one that is always threatened whenever a new skating phenomenon appears.  Even if Yuzu can firmly claim the title everyone must remember that the GOAT is not etched in stone, that it only remains until the next convincing claimant comes along, and that will be the case if his record only on his competitive success.  In the annals of sport there is only one person holding a GOAT who I feel will never lose it, and that's baseball's Babe Ruth.  Why?  Most people think of him only as the supreme hitter.  No, that's not the reason.  The other is that he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time.  There are those who may exceed his achievements as a hitter, and those who do so as a pitcher, but there will never be another who'll do both.  That's security.  To a certain extent, if Yuzu successfully redefines ice shows, and then is able to put into practice theories about coaching that are actually successful (theories he's currently developing in his university studies), he actually might acquire an unassailable GOAT, as the most consequential skater of all, the one who had an effect on the rink, on the nature of ice shows, and on coaching.  If his accomplishments are found in all three, then, yes , he will be the Babe Ruth of figure-skating.

Yuzu can invent new jumps and spins, win every single possible medal, and break WRs a dozen more times and he will not be GOAT simply because there will always be a new thing he must do for it. I personally hate this debate,  titles and labels people like to use and would rather he be just Yuzuru Hanyu tha amazing skater that he is . Yuzu doesn't need to prove anything or to live to any expectations anymore. He did what he wanted to do and more than was expected of him and he achieved a lot in his young life. What he did should be respected and admired without having "but" every time he is mentioned.

 

Yuzuru has done enough and no one has the right to tell him give more. 

[singermelodie1]

11 minutes ago, Hydroblade said:

🐐

Spoiler

Why are you always funny?

 

[micaelis]

11 minutes ago, Neenah said:

Yuzu can invent new jumps and spins, win every single possible medal, and break WRs a dozen more times and he will not be GOAT simply because there will always be a new thing he must do for it. I personally hate this debate,  titles and labels people like to use and would rather he be just Yuzuru Hanyu tha amazing skater that he is . Yuzu doesn't need to prove anything or to live to any expectations anymore. He did what he wanted to do and more than was expected of him and he achieved a lot in his young life. What he did should be respected and admired without having "but" every time he is mentioned.

 

Yuzuru has done enough and no one has the right to tell him give more. 

I agree with you there.  GOAT is, actually and ultimately, an apples and oranges thing simply because there is disagreement on what constitutes a GOAT.  That's why I've gone on record as saying Yuzu's ultimate assessment may be a result of his achievements being not simply in competition but in what he brings to other aspects of figure-skating culture.  A term, often used in a narrower context, suggests itself to me, and that is that Yuzu might, in terms of what he accomplishes in his competition, in potentially remaking ice shows and in the impact he might have on coaching, in that sense Yuzu would be truly the 'Complete' skater.

[singermelodie1]

3 minutes ago, micaelis said:

I agree with you there.  GOAT is, actually and ultimately, an apples and oranges thing simply because there is disagreement on what constitutes a GOAT.  That's why I've gone on record as saying Yuzu's ultimate assessment may be a result of his achievements being not simply in competition but in what he brings to other aspects of figure-skating culture.  A term, often used in a narrower context, suggests itself to me, and that is that Yuzu might, in terms of what he accomplishes in his competition, in potentially remaking ice shows and in the impact he might have on coaching, in that sense Yuzu would be truly the 'Complete' skater.

Yuzuru already changed figure skating.  If you watch junior competitions, you'll see many skaters with plush tissue box which is something yuzuru is famous for.

He changed the culture if the sports.

[Xen]

21 minutes ago, micaelis said:

I agree with you there.  GOAT is, actually and ultimately, an apples and oranges thing simply because there is disagreement on what constitutes a GOAT.  That's why I've gone on record as saying Yuzu's ultimate assessment may be a result of his achievements being not simply in competition but in what he brings to other aspects of figure-skating culture.  A term, often used in a narrower context, suggests itself to me, and that is that Yuzu might, in terms of what he accomplishes in his competition, in potentially remaking ice shows and in the impact he might have on coaching, in that sense Yuzu would be truly the 'Complete' skater.

Actually I'm on board with absolute frustration at the GOAT debate, because no one has made an actual, objective criteria for GOAT-ness. So in the end, it becomes a what Person A subjective values more relative to what person B values more debate. 

 

However, there seems to be several ways mainstream media has decided to measure GOATnes- correct me if I'm wrong. 

1) Medals won-particularly Olympic medals. In the OGM faceoff, the only 2 guys to win back to back OGMs in the last 66+ years are Dick Button and Yuzu. Yes Plushenko is great, but he did not get 2 back to back (arguably in a controversial way). 

2) Dominance in the sport-  In this case, you also have 3 guys who can measure up here-Button, Plushenko and Yuzu. Possibly Patrick Chan can make a claim for his post 2010 years. Button and Plushenko just did not lose,  but if you also weigh in the depth of the competition, then Yuzu might have the edge, as part of his lack of consistency other than injury, could be due to his competition being much more stronger relative to the competition that Button and Plushenko faced. Yet, despite all that, he is the one breaking his records, he is still the force that other guys calculate and hedge against. For the past 4 years, the question is not "whether Yuzu will medal" but "how does one beat a Yuzuru Hanyu?" The answer from some corners have been to up the quads and rely on brute force (BV) to make up for any deficiencies in GOE or PCS. But still, that is a symbol of dominance if an opponents strategy is not "what I do for myself" but "what do I do to ensure against you?"

3) Records and contributions to the sport- echoing what you said before, here Yuzu does have an edge.

 

I did consider artistry and how a skater truly embodies the idea of figure skating-blend of high technical athletic prowess and artistic vision. But then artistic vision is a subjective measure, and here we'd have to enter the great John Curry, possibly Toller Cranston etc, who changed the artistic landscape of figure skating. Even so, like with Yuzu, I'm sure somewhere someone will and may have argued in the past, that those skaters were not "artistic" and "artistry is subjective."

 

However, the reason why if we have to argue about why Yuzu is the only one who can easily be considered a GOAT contender, at least until another one comes along, is because he is the only one so far who could make a very strong claim under any of those 3 criteria. And if that's not a sign, I don't know what is. 

 

[hoodie axel]

I actually just don't know what the point of determining a GOAT is. It won't affect anyone's achievements.

[Xen]

1 minute ago, hoodie axel said:

I actually just don't know what the point of determining a GOAT is. It won't affect anyone's achievements.

I don't know either...John Curry never got GOAT title, doesn't make him less artistic, influential, impactful to figure skating. 

[Ferrer]

It's up to you if you think he's still not the GOAT yet or what in FS.

For me, as a human being, he's the GOAT no doubt.

Find someone else who had succeeded so much in his/her life and still care and pay attention to his/her surroundings and fans.

They are GOAT for me.

And he's just 23. Still a long way to go.

[MrPudding]

 

[cinemacoconut]

18 minutes ago, Xen said:

Actually I'm on board with absolute frustration at the GOAT debate, because no one has made an actual, objective criteria for GOAT-ness. So in the end, it becomes a what Person A subjective values more relative to what person B values more debate. 

 

However, there seems to be several ways mainstream media has decided to measure GOATnes- correct me if I'm wrong. 

1) Medals won-particularly Olympic medals. In the OGM faceoff, the only 2 guys to win back to back OGMs in the last 66+ years are Dick Button and Yuzu. Yes Plushenko is great, but he did not get 2 back to back (arguably in a controversial way). 

2) Dominance in the sport-  In this case, you also have 3 guys who can measure up here-Button, Plushenko and Yuzu. Possibly Patrick Chan can make a claim for his post 2010 years. Button and Plushenko just did not lose,  but if you also weigh in the depth of the competition, then Yuzu might have the edge, as part of his lack of consistency other than injury, could be due to his competition being much more stronger relative to the competition that Button and Plushenko faced. Yet, despite all that, he is the one breaking his records, he is still the force that other guys calculate and hedge against. For the past 4 years, the question is not "whether Yuzu will medal" but "how does one beat a Yuzuru Hanyu?" The answer from some corners have been to up the quads and rely on brute force (BV) to make up for any deficiencies in GOE or PCS. But still, that is a symbol of dominance if an opponents strategy is not "what I do for myself" but "what do I do to ensure against you?"

3) Records and contributions to the sport- echoing what you said before, here Yuzu does have an edge.

 

I did consider artistry and how a skater truly embodies the idea of figure skating-blend of high technical athletic prowess and artistic vision. But then artistic vision is a subjective measure, and here we'd have to enter the great John Curry, possibly Toller Cranston etc, who changed the artistic landscape of figure skating. Even so, like with Yuzu, I'm sure somewhere someone will and may have argued in the past, that those skaters were not "artistic" and "artistry is subjective."

 

However, the reason why if we have to argue about why Yuzu is the only one who can easily be considered a GOAT contender, at least until another one comes along, is because he is the only one so far who could make a very strong claim under any of those 3 criteria. And if that's not a sign, I don't know what is. 

 

 

 

Yuzu was what motivated younger skaters to try different quads to challenge him. I believe yuzu was the driving force for developing mens figure skating as a competitive war ground as it is today. Mens figure skating never became so excited as the Yuzu era in the past 4 years since sochi. But yuzu still dominated.