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[2019] GPF - Men Free Skating

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3 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I feel the program suffered a bit because he was focusing so much on those quads and he definitely run out of stamina towards the end and it got a bit shaky. He should be very very proud of himself in my opinion. He knows now that he CAN pull this off now it is just a case of getting the stamina raised and letting the performance shine through now he is more confident with the layout 

First of all welcome to the forum:))

 

I mean if we talk about that all nathan programs suffers in transition because he focus on jumps yet he gets Yuzu’s best level of score so are we really gonna discuss the different standard applied to Yuzu?

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10 hours ago, KatjaThera said:

So just because people believe all fanyus are bad we have to prove them right? I will never get this mentality. My country's people have a reputation of being thieves. Does that mean we all in this country should shrug and say "They think we're thieves anyway, might as well thieve." As long as Yuzu is nice and only politely throwing shade, I believe his fans should be the same. Being polite is not being a pushover. It's being the better man/woman/etc.

 

Figure skating is not football. It's not like most other sports. Because of the artistry element and other things, it's a generally more polite venture. As such, I believe we should find polite ways to protest. Or at least direct our protests where it matters: towards the judges and the ISU.

 

But you know what else? Fans were outraged when the Worlds 2020 tickets were announced. Boycotts were mentioned. And when the tickets went on sale? Everyone rushed to buy them anyway. Because at the end of the day, their desire to see Yuzu is stronger than their desire to boycott the ISU by not giving them the money. You can walk out, you can protest, you can throw rotten tomatoes at them. As long as you give them your money, they won't care. Have you never seen concerts that are touted as sold out and shown in such a way as to seem they are sold out, but if you look at non-press pictures, they're at best half full? They will find ways so few will ever know about the boycotts.

 

As for the damage being done by fans, what exact proof do you want? Have you not seen the stuff some fans do? Do you really not think some are capable of that? I'm sure there are some who are willing to do that. Yuzu has stalkers. There are fans who attack his rivals, anyone who says anything that is not in his favor, even his coaches with pure hatred. I'm also not entirely sure how many fans of other skaters would be willing to pay 1600 EUR for VIP tickets, but that's a different issue. I'm also not sure what other skater's fans would be that mad at the ISU.

 

And if it's not about Yuzu, then why not walk out when any of the Russian girls are skating? Or Samarin? Or any of the other majorly overscored guys and girls?

 

But the better question, why punish the skaters to make a statement when it's not their fault? Not really?

 

Dai fans protested against Yuzu because they were in the firm belief that JSF was favoring him. And they hurt Yuzu for what the fed was or wasn't doing. And we all think they are vile, but now we want to do the same to other skaters...

 

Seriously, I'm so freaking tired of fandoms. I get it you're mad. We're all mad. But nothing good would come out of doing stuff like this.

 

Yuzu did so amazingly. Why can't wecelebrate that instead of starting wars in his name that he would never approve of? I'm so sick and tired of all this hatred.

regarding tickets: people learned from wc2020, the gpf did not sell out, not even for saturday. there were kids brought in the upper section. tickets were marked unavailable on the judges side and then they did sell on that side too, but were not all bought, because they were vip and those who wanted vip had bought a ticket already. they brought in kids and teenagers for the gala too. for the worlds, there are still lots of tickets available. those with a lot of money will buy, just to see yuzu. but look at what happened at COR this year. they were spoiled to sell out last year and this year they upped the prices, even though yuzu wasn't there. and they did not sell out, you could have still bought tickets a day before.

 

regading the boicotting of the other skaters: from a technical point of view, if just one skater is targeted, i think the message will definitely be misunderstood as being sour because yuzu's rival is winning. you cannot boicot nathan for being overscored but not samarin who is also overscored just because he's not yet in the position of having 4-5 quads to chalkenge yuzu. also, what about the skaters in the other disciplines? stay for rika, leave for trusova? get back in for kaori, leave for zagitova? it doesn't seem practically feasible. i would like to refrain on commenting on the moral right/wrong aspect of it, because it's subjective and i want to respect other people's opinions.

 

i like how yuzu throws shade with what he says and does to show that he's not oblivious to everything that's happening, like the interview where he said he trusts hid 4T to be rotated after ACI and his comment in th K&C at SC after that, like the "if i'm evaluated correctly" quote and so on. for those who want a protest, maybe they could also think of such ways to do  it, as to defend yuzu if they want in a way that is his style. i also understand that people are frustrated and have reached the tolerrance limit and feel powerless in this current situation.

i hope that i will have the power to tolerate it until yuzu decides to quit. i also hope that yuzu felt at this competition that his fans love him win or lose and is not hard of himself for the sake of not disappointing them.

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Just now, Bilge said:

I mean if we talk about that all nathan programs suffers in transition because he focus on jumps yet he gets Yuzu’s best level of score so are we really gonna discuss the different standard applied to Yuzu?

I do not know and I do not want to argue

 

Like I said before I love them both for different reasons 

 

Yuzu is a skating god we all know that

But in his own way so is Nathan

 

I am very happy they are competing against each other at such a high level and to me that is the most important thing. They each have a reason to push themselves. Nathan cannot rest on his reputation and high scoring if he cant hold his nerve against Yuzu and the same would apply the other way.

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35 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I have never posted on any internet forum before 

I lurk 

I never comment or sign up

I am too shy so forgive me if I make mo sense or ramble or make mistakes.

 

Both Yuzu and Nathan are my absolute favourites in the Mens. I love them both and in different ways. And nathan I've only recently become a fan of.

It hurts me so much there is so much warring between fans and all the hatred, nasty comments, vandalism of a symbolic wall with rude words and people holding up signs during medal ceremonies.

 

Yuzu and Nathan are both humans with feelings and emotions and I am 100% sure neither of them would want this.

 

I beg of all of you not to make Nathan suffer because you think he is overscored. Yuzu was a very tough act for him to follow and to rise to the challenge the way he did was mightily impressive. Both these amazing skaters should be treasured.

 

I thought about nathan saying he is extremely happy with his score and I feel...well what else is he supposed to say? If he said he thinks he is overscored and doesn't deserve it and should be much lower a whole bunch of people will say he's ungrateful and stupid for it. He cant really win either way

 

I think too many people believe they know better when it comes to what these men are thinking or how they answer questions. 

 

Nathan is not the problem here, he went out and responded with his own five quad + 3A FS under enormous pressure and a long delay.

 

He deserved to win, SP and FS... and although I wish the scoring was closer the correct decision was made... this is not like Yuzu was robbed of the gold, he wasn't. 

I hope Yuzu continues to just keep doing what he is doing and build his stamina to make this program truly perfect! 

Hello, first of all-- welcome! Don't worry-- your entire response was really great. I love when we can talk about these topics civilly. c: 

 

Overall, I think we're all wanting the same thing. I think 99.99999% of reasonable figure skating fans can agree: Nathan deserved to win this competition-- no question. The question is not "was Yuzu robbed of gold"-- he wasn't. Nathan did a great job with the tools in his toolbox and showed the result of his training. However, as you said, I wish "the scoring was closer". The scoring is the exact problem. This is not an isolated incident of Yuzuru being underscored in comparison to other skaters. (Or an isolated incident of skaters in general being over/underscored. Just look at the ladies' event). But it has been especially prevalent this season. However, there stakes were lower at ACI/SC. Fans might have written it off as "oh, just one of those judging idiosyncracies. ACI is always a crapshoot. It won't happen later in the season". Because, as you mentioned-- Yuzu still won at those Grand Prix events-- the results wouldn't have changed.

 

But this GPF-- the stakes were high. Thousands of eyes were on these two men, due to the scale of the competition and the media attention. The fact that the judging was unfair despite the high stakes, despite the fans holding up signs, despite there being notable tension earlier in the season because of judging/ISU rules... That goes to show so much about the intrinsic problems with the judging system. I'm sure you can also agree that there are definitely at least some aspects of which Yuzu is underappreciated for when it comes to his score. A further problem is if this type of judging continues. If an organization or judge thinks that they can continue swiping off points from Yuzu's score, what is going to stop them from increasing the scale later on? Trust me-- these types of issues don't de-escalate on their own. People just keep increasing and increasing their biases and furthering agenda because they can. (Enron, anybody?)

 

I do not condone or support hateful speech, arguing, or putting Nathan down as a person or as a skater. These two boys are just doing their best in this sport, and we're lucky enough to witness it. The problem is, what happens when a skater becomes so disincentivized to perform elements to the highest degree because the scores don't reflect that? Although I'm sure Yuzu is not at that stage yet-- his fighting spirit wouldn't allow it, the trajectory of ISU's judging processes is clear. And the fear of what is coming is what makes people scared and want to discuss and take action against it.

 

I think in all events of figure skating, we'd all like to see the playing field become a little more fair and improve in terms of judging. Figure skating has always been notorious for judging scandals and biases, and as lovers of the sport, one of the rare ones that combine athleticism and artistry, we'd like to keep skaters in the sport because they know that they will be fairly evaluated. Because in the end, this is a sport, and in a sport, your score matters. No one wants to be a part of a sport where the very metric of winning/losing/evaluation is flawed. The methods might differ in how we get there, but in general, at the core, I think we're all arguing for the same thing: improvement in the system.

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31 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I have never posted on any internet forum before 

I lurk 

I never comment or sign up

I am too shy so forgive me if I make mo sense or ramble or make mistakes.

 

Both Yuzu and Nathan are my absolute favourites in the Mens. I love them both and in different ways. And nathan I've only recently become a fan of.

 

It hurts me so much there is so much warring between fans and all the hatred, nasty comments, vandalism of a symbolic wall with rude words and people holding up signs during medal ceremonies.

 

Yuzu and Nathan are both humans with feelings and emotions and I am 100% sure neither of them would want this.

 

 

I beg of all of you not to make Nathan suffer because you think he is overscored. Yuzu was a very tough act for him to follow and to rise to the challenge the way he did was mightily impressive. Both these amazing skaters should be treasured.

 

I thought about nathan saying he is extremely happy with his score and I feel...well what else is he supposed to say? If he said he thinks he is overscored and doesn't deserve it and should be much lower a whole bunch of people will say he's ungrateful and stupid for it. He cant really win either way

 

I think too many people believe they know better when it comes to what these men are thinking or how they answer questions. 

 

Nathan is not the problem here, he went out and responded with his own five quad + 3A FS under enormous pressure and a long delay.

 

He deserved to win, SP and FS... and although I wish the scoring was closer the correct decision was made... this is not like Yuzu was robbed of the gold, he wasn't. 

I hope Yuzu continues to just keep doing what he is doing and build his stamina to make this program truly perfect! 

ok, but do you seriously don't recognize the pattern to downplay Yuzuru as much as it's possible and ensure Nathan wins every possible competition, as long as he doesn't bomb? I don't hate Nathan at all, and I'm hardly the most 'agressive' Yuzu fan, but seriously...That's the same thing that happened to PChan, expect they have to try harder now, because Yuzu is just so much better...

And Yuzu can make his program perfect, but they won't lat him win, unless he's clean and Nathan makes mistake(s). While he should be winning in PCS by 10+ points every time. I mean, I'm not even gonna talk about the most subjective components, but HOW can you even compare their SS/TR scores? This is a crime that should seriously be investigated to score Nathan's ABOVE Yuzu. We're lucky he's not hot blooded guy who would just walks out right away after that, but keep trying anyway.

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2 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I do not know and I do not want to argue

 

Like I said before I love them both for different reasons 

 

Yuzu is a skating god we all know that

But in his own way so is Nathan

 

I am very happy they are competing against each other at such a high level and to me that is the most important thing. They each have a reason to push themselves. Nathan cannot rest on his reputation and high scoring if he cant hold his nerve against Yuzu and the same would apply the other way.

 

They can only compete fairly if being judged fairly, no favoritism. By then, I am sure that all of Fanyu would congratulate on Nathan's win.

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12 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

 

Frankly, it's ISU's and federation's job to look after their skaters. Fans are obliged not to cause harm to skaters in any way at all. No booing, no distraction, no sabotage of any kind.

 

But for me, for instance, now, watching Nathan skate with that TES box showing ridiculous numbers causes ME emotional distress. Watching Nathan live will cause a lot of people a great deal of emotional distress because of his federation and ISU. Nobody is obliged to sit through that so that Nathan will not, by some chance, feel bad. He is an elite athlete, and if he's getting the advantage of being backed by ISU and USFSA so heavily, then I'm afraid the disadvantage - being truly distressing to watch, and becoming the most effective person whose skate being in front of no audience would make a point in a protest - is a part of the deal.

 

This is not actively causing him harm in any way.

 

However it would be more effective to walk out as he skates off the ice after his programme. An empty arena for K&C and the announcement of scores.

the first part, with not watching is done already in the rink. quite a lot of people did not watch his skate, they looked at their phone. some didn't even clap for him at the end. the second part, with leaving during the skate is not done out of respect for the other people, as you might disturb them by getting up from your sit or passing in front if them. the security don't let people get in when a program is on, you have to watch from the entrances. i think it's very good this way. if you want to leave, you have to do it before or after.

 

again, this post of mine is not diving into the rightness or wrongness of this type of protest. i just wanted to say what i observed.

 

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I am not the kind of person to look for scandal in judging at every possible chance. 

 

I became a huge figure skating fan (and a figure skater myself for a few years) in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

The judging seems to have the same pattern it did then.

 

I only watched ladies up until about 1993 but when Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were throwing down Triple Axels they were getting huge scores including higher presentation scores than before. 

Tonya Harding with a mostly clean skate with a 3A was getting flooded with 5.9s for presentation too.

 

I do not necessarily see any of this then or now as corruption but a clear message that sheer athleticism matters more, that artistry is not as important. That Nathan's  "I've just nailed a 5 quad and 3A program like its nothing and with enough energy to look like I could do it all over again" is what they're looking for.

 

Of course many people disagree with that 

 

 

Personally I am torn

 

I love Yuzu and I love Nathan

 

I'm torn in the same way with ladies

 

Sasha Trusova is a phenom and I adore her but the ladies is all jump jump jump jump with insane energy 

 

I do feel for those who are more about artistry and quality in general

 

I suppose Alyona Kostornaia comes closest for me in ladies for sheer athleticism plus everything else too.

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8 minutes ago, vd_turnan said:

the first part, with not watching is done already in the rink. quite a lot of people did not watch his skate, they looked at their phone. some didn't even clap for him at the end. the second part, with leaving during the skate is not done out of respect for the other people, as you might disturb them by getting up from your sit or passing in front if them. the security don't let people get in when a program is on, you have to watch from the entrances. i think it's very good this way. if you want to leave, you have to do it before or after.

 

again, this post of mine is not diving into the rightness or wrongness of this type of protest. i just wanted to say what i observed.

 

Personally I think this kind of protest is very wrong 

 

I am respectful to all skaters and respect the sheer effort they put in to get where they are.

 

I skated...I trained hard, it cost much parents insane amounts of money, I sacrificed my social life and part of my education for skating. It is hard.

 

There are skaters who I'm not keen on or who I think are not scored correctly but I would never boycott them in such a manner.

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10 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I am not the kind of person to look for scandal in judging at every possible chance. 

 

I became a huge figure skating fan (and a figure skater myself for a few years) in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

The judging seems to have the same pattern it did then.

 

I only watched ladies up until about 1993 but when Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were throwing down Triple Axels they were getting huge scores including higher presentation scores than before. 

Tonya Harding with a mostly clean skate with a 3A was getting flooded with 5.9s for presentation too.

 

I do not necessarily see any of this then or now as corruption but a clear message that sheer athleticism matters more, that artistry is not as important. That Nathan's  "I've just nailed a 5 quad and 3A program like its nothing and with enough energy to look like I could do it all over again" is what they're looking for.

 

Of course many people disagree with that 

 

 

Personally I am torn

 

I love Yuzu and I love Nathan

 

I'm torn in the same way with ladies

 

Sasha Trusova is a phenom and I adore her but the ladies is all jump jump jump jump with insane energy 

 

I do feel for those who are more about artistry and quality in general

 

I suppose Alyona Kostornaia comes closest for me in ladies for sheer athleticism plus everything else too.

Then they shouldn't change the scoring system at all. If it wasn't wrong it'd stay. Since it changed because it stain the credibility of the sport they shouldn;'t make the new system looks like the old one. They shouldn't wrote pages long books for how things should be than go as they wish. It is also disrespectful to the skater who train and focus as stated in the rulebook.

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7 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

 

I do not necessarily see any of this then or now as corruption but a clear message that sheer athleticism matters more, that artistry is not as important. That Nathan's  "I've just nailed a 5 quad and 3A program like its nothing and with enough energy to look like I could do it all over again" is what they're looking for.

 

A bigger question to add in here is whether Nathan got the same scoring for his "athleticism performance" if he has a different passport.

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3 minutes ago, Bilge said:

Than they shouldn't change the scoring system at all. If it wasn't wrong it'd stay. Since it changed because it stain the credibility of the sport they shouldn;'t make the new system looks like the old one. They shouldn't wrote pages long books for how things should be than go as they wish. It is also disrespectful to the skater who train and focus as stated in the rulebook.

I think we all know the new scoring was just a knee-jerk reaction to that 2002 scandal. Nothing much has really changed at all. It is lipstick on a pig, to use a very Anglo-American phrase

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14 minutes ago, NorthernGrace01 said:

I am not the kind of person to look for scandal in judging at every possible chance. 

 

I became a huge figure skating fan (and a figure skater myself for a few years) in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

The judging seems to have the same pattern it did then.

 

I only watched ladies up until about 1993 but when Midori Ito and Tonya Harding were throwing down Triple Axels they were getting huge scores including higher presentation scores than before. 

Tonya Harding with a mostly clean skate with a 3A was getting flooded with 5.9s for presentation too.

 

I do not necessarily see any of this then or now as corruption but a clear message that sheer athleticism matters more, that artistry is not as important. That Nathan's  "I've just nailed a 5 quad and 3A program like its nothing and with enough energy to look like I could do it all over again" is what they're looking for.

 

Of course many people disagree with that 

 

 

Personally I am torn

 

I love Yuzu and I love Nathan

 

I'm torn in the same way with ladies

 

Sasha Trusova is a phenom and I adore her but the ladies is all jump jump jump jump with insane energy 

 

I do feel for those who are more about artistry and quality in general

 

I suppose Alyona Kostornaia comes closest for me in ladies or sheer athleticism plus everything else too.

Thank you for your insight on the issue.

I guess some fans look at that "focus on athleticism and not really artistry" as a threat-- because who would be the most direct beneficiary of that type of change in focus? In men's, Nathan.

 

I personally think striking a balance is correct. I don't think jumps and athleticism are going to be severely "undervalued" in the sport any time soon. At least in the near future, I can only see the new, shiny jumps getting a lot of attention because they look good on headlines, they're easy to understand. 4 rotations on a toe? Golly. But in my opinion, what makes figure skating great is this blend of artistry and athleticism. I think striking a way to objectively value artistry AND athleticism/jumps-- and doing that accurately, is more important than shifting the focus from artistry to athleticism. It's not a solution. You first have to find a way to have accurate, reliable metrics and evaluations before you start deciding which metric is more important than the other. That's just not how it should work from a logic standpoint. They're both very important parts of the sport, but ISU is going about it the wrong way, if we go upon the aforementioned/quoted assumption that it has nothing to do with the skaters themselves.

 

Either way, something needs to change. 

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2 minutes ago, tuyettu said:

 

A bigger question to add in here is whether Nathan got the same scoring for his "athleticism performance" if he has a different passport.

I don't think we can ever answer that unless Nathan were to change his nationality. 

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1 minute ago, yuzublaze said:

Thank you for your insight on the issue.

I guess some fans look at that "focus on athleticism and not really artistry" as a threat-- because who would be the most direct beneficiary of that type of change in focus? In men's, Nathan.

 

I personally think striking a balance is correct. I don't think jumps and athleticism are going to be severely "undervalued" in the sport any time soon. At least in the near future, I can only see the new, shiny jumps getting a lot of attention because they look good on headlines, they're easy to understand. 4 rotations on a toe? Golly. But in my opinion, what makes figure skating great is this blend of artistry and athleticism. I think striking a way to objectively value artistry AND athleticism/jumps-- and doing that accurately, is more important than shifting the focus from artistry to athleticism. It's not a solution. They're both very important parts of the sport, but ISU is going about it the wrong way, if we go upon the aforementioned/quoted assumption that it has nothing to do with the skaters themselves.

 

Either way, something needs to change. 

 

Conspiracy theories and cries of corruption don't always help.

 

I try not to be so cynical.

 

I feel the ISU are making a statement that a Nathan Chen (and a Sasha Trusova) is exactly what they want to represent the sport moving forward in to a new era. 

 

Is that fair? To many...no, others might agree.

 

The athleticism vs artistry debate is not new and it seems athleticism does indeed win more often than not in the last 20 years or so.

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